You Decide (Clip)

[SWKS]

Originally Posted by Adam

Having LGP grants some rights, but they're limited. If a player who has established LGP moves forward into the shooter at contact, it's a blocking foul. LGP had been established, but the movement by the defender exceeded the legal limits.

On this play in particular, it's possible to think she did establish LGP and still think it was a block due to her actions at the point of contact (moving into the shooter.

Disagree with the statement about establishing LGP and then still having a block call. In the scenario you present, the defensive players loses LGP when they are moving towards the offensive player. Which you can also digress to break the rule of verticality.

Either way if a player has and KEEPS LGP then it is a PC foul.

[bob jenkins]

Prior messages have "always" said "establishes." Now you've (correctly) added "maintains." That's the difference.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

It appears that some people equate LGP with being a defender being positioned on a straight line between an offensive player, who is control of the ball, and the offensive player's team's basket. There is no rule support for this requirement....

No one has made that assertion.

The defender needs to be in the path the offensive player is moving. A1 could be dribbling away from her basket to the division line, then B1 would need to take a position between A1 and the division line. I don't think anyone has suggested B1 could not obtain LGP in this situation.

[Welpe]

I have a .

I don't think it's all that close either.

Incidentally, I had a similar play to this my first year except the defender got there early enough that he was stationary and screening rules applied. I ruled that one a charge.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Welpe

I have a .

I don't think it's all that close either.
....

You have a dancing banana? TMI

Oh, that's a "block" signal he's doing.

[#olderthanilook]

NFHS
Rule: 4-23-2
ART. 2
To obtain an initial legal guarding position:
a. The guard must have both feet touching the playing court.
b. The front of the guard's torso must be facing the opponent.

Both defender's feet were definitely touching the playing court (direction of toes does not matter). However, her torso was not facing the opponent. Therefore, I have a BLOCK, not PC.

[SWKS]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Prior messages have "always" said "establishes." Now you've (correctly) added "maintains." That's the difference.

Good point, your right

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

No one has made that assertion.

The defender needs to be in the path the offensive player is moving. A1 could be dribbling away from her basket to the division line, then B1 would need to take a position between A1 and the division line. I don't think anyone has suggested B1 could not obtain LGP in this situation.

While that can also be considered LGP, I don't believe it is the only place to get LGP. Between the player and the basket is always going to be a position where LGP can be obtained regardless of the direction of movement.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

Turning into a player or turning away from contact is the same physical action, the only difference is intent. One shoulder has to move forward towards the player and the other will move away.

What? One is towards one is away. If LGP has been obtained, one is a foul while the other is legal.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by #olderthanilook

NFHS
Rule: 4-23-2
ART. 2
To obtain an initial legal guarding position:
a. The guard must have both feet touching the playing court.
b. The front of the guard's torso must be facing the opponent.

Both defender's feet were definitely touching the playing court (direction of toes does not matter). However, her torso was not facing the opponent. Therefore, I have a BLOCK, not PC.

Older:

I am going to use your post to make a point about the "front of the guard's torso must be facing the opponent".


Another point that has been discussed in this thread with regard to LGP is NFHS R4-S23-A2 which states that:

Article 2a: To obtain an initial legal guarding position the guard must have both feet touching the playing court.

Article 2b: To obtain an initial legal guarding position the guard's torso must be facing the opponent.


Now, as a retired structural engineer I get to apply my mathematical skills to discuss NFHS R4-S23-A2.

1) Both Paragraphs (a) and (b) of Article 2 must occur at the same time at some point during the action to obtain LGP.

2) There is no minimum length of time required for the requirements of Paragraphs (a) and (b) to be maintained to obtain LGP. The moment of time can be as short as 0.000,...,...,000,...,1 seconds (One can have an infinite number of 0's between the decimal point at the 1.).

3) The facing of the guard's torso can be defined, mathematically, as follows: At the moment that the requirements of Paragraphs (a) and (b) are met, the orientation of the front of the guard's torso, so as to be facing his/her opponent, must meet the following requirements:

a) Imagine a straight line (Line A) between the between the guard and his/her opponent and imagine a second line (Line B) running through the shoulders of the guard.

b) The angle between Line B and Line A at the point where the two lines intersect can be 90 degrees (the lines are perpendicular to each other).

c) Or, Line B can be rotated about the point where the two lines intersect from their perpendicular orientation in either direction by as much as 89.999,...,999 degrees (One can have an infinite number of 9's after the decimal point.).

(b) and (c) both meet the requirement of Article 2b.


MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Don't forget the "in the path" component I learned recently. I don't see the defender in the path until a second or two before contact, and then she is not directly facing the dribbler. The defender is sidestepping the whole way. Additionally, I think I see a bit of forward contact right as the defender stops, which would negate any LGP if she did have it. Offensive player is under control the whole way, block.



Both times you freeze it I don't see the B1 in A1's path at all.

AremRed:

Where in the Rules is this "in the path" of which you speak. I have peruesed the Rules Books from 1971 hence and cannot find it.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by TriggerMN

Good one. I almost thought you were serious for a moment.

TriggerMN:

Why did you think I was not serious?

MTD, Sr.

[APG]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

AremRed:

Where in the Rules is this "in the path" of which you speak. I have peruesed the Rules Books from 1971 hence and cannot find it.

MTD, Sr.

MTD...the very act of guarding requires the defender to be in the path

NCAA (Men and Women)

Rule 4

Section 17. Guarding
Art. 1. Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent. The guarding position shall be initially established and then maintained inbounds on the playing court.

NFHS:

Rule 4-23
Art. 1 Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent. There is no minimum distance required between the guard and opponent, but the maximum is 6 feet when closely guarded. Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without *illegally contacting an opponent. A player who extends an arm, shoulder, hip or leg into the path of an opponent is not considered to have a legal position if contact occurs.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Older:

I am going to use your post to make a point about the "front of the guard's torso must be facing the opponent".


Another point that has been discussed in this thread with regard to LGP is NFHS R4-S23-A2 which states that:

Article 2a: To obtain an initial legal guarding position the guard must have both feet touching the playing court.

Article 2b: To obtain an initial legal guarding position the guard's torso must be facing the opponent.


Now, as a retired structural engineer I get to apply my mathematical skills to discuss NFHS R4-S23-A2.

1) Both Paragraphs (a) and (b) of Article 2 must occur at the same time at some point during the action to obtain LGP.

2) There is no minimum length of time required for the requirements of Paragraphs (a) and (b) to be maintained to obtain LGP. The moment of time can be as short as 0.000,...,...,000,...,1 seconds (One can have an infinite number of 0's between the decimal point at the 1.).

3) The facing of the guard's torso can be defined, mathematically, as follows: At the moment that the requirements of Paragraphs (a) and (b) are met, the orientation of the front of the guard's torso, so as to be facing his/her opponent, must meet the following requirements:

a) Imagine a straight line (Line A) between the between the guard and his/her opponent and imagine a second line (Line B) running through the shoulders of the guard.

b) The angle between Line B and Line A at the point where the two lines intersect can be 90 degrees (the lines are perpendicular to each other).

c) Or, Line B can be rotated about the point where the two lines intersect from their perpendicular orientation in either direction by as much as 89.999,...,999 degrees (One can have an infinite number of 9's after the decimal point.).

(b) and (c) both meet the requirement of Article 2b.


MTD, Sr.

I never see both of these happening. IMO, the defenders torso never faces the opponent.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I'm very confused by the shoulder comments. I don't see B1 turning the shoulder into the offense; I see B1 turning the shoulder in front of A1 and that's where the contact is.

I think the call (no matter which you have) would be the same whether B1 turns or not (in this play).

+10,000 and fine Cuban cigar.

MTD, Sr.