Administrative Technicals

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Camron,

I made it very clear that the thing that can never happen is the double foul on an administrative technical foul based off of a book technical. There is no rules support that you have shown me to contradict that statement. I did not say you could never possibly have two different players from two different teams not be in the book. I just do not believe that you can call that a double foul and go to the POI as a way to administer the situation. If that is hard to understand than I guess that is your issue. Maybe that is what they do at the NCAAW level, but not the rules set I am using. I would even have to look up to see if even at the NCAAM level this is the way to handle such a situation. And if you do a lot of things you can prevent all this by having coaches check what they submitted.

Peace

What is clear is that you can't read. I said SIMULTANEOUS, not double.

And the proper ruling, when a player from each team is NOT in the book and the scorer tells you that at one time (it doesn't matter which one he happens to state first), is that you have a simultaneous foul situation....which goes to POI. It really isn't that difficult, but for you, I (and all too many others here) have come to expect that everything simple is difficult.


FYI, I don't know where you think I work NCAA-W, not that there is anything wrong with that. I've only worked NCAA-M....and mostly boys HS with a couple girls games a year.

And i don't really know why you reference any specific rule set since you like to make up your own most of the time.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

What is clear is that you can't read. I said SIMULTANEOUS, not double.

I read it, and I do not agree with that opinion. You know, something you seem to have a hard time dealing with, another opinion.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

And the proper ruling, when a player from each team is NOT in the book and the scorer tells you that at one time (it doesn't matter which one he happens to state first), is that you have a simultaneous foul situation....which goes to POI. It really isn't that difficult, but for you, I (and all too many others here) have come to expect that everything simple is difficult.

OK, do you have a case play that backs up that opinion? I told you I would be flexible if you could show me a ruling other than what you normally do here, speak from your opinion. Well I cannot go on your opinion because where I live and who I work for have no idea who you are.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

FYI, I don't know where you think I work NCAA-W, not that there is anything wrong with that. I've only worked NCAA-M....and mostly boys HS with a couple girls games a year.

I thought you worked Women's college. And I thought Bob's reference to you was a suggestion that you work that level and would know those rulings. If you don't work Women's college that is no sweat off my back. Believe it or not I really do not pay that close attention to what you do as an official.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

And i don't really know why you reference any specific rule set since you like to make up your own most of the time.

If I make up rules as I go along, why do I continue to work games at two different levels? And I am usually the person (in multiple sports) that usually knows these situations because I make it my business to not have rules mistakes. So why the hell do I continue to work if you know so much about what I do as an official? The issue is you have no idea what I do or do not do as an official. And us talking about things here is often has not one thing to do with what we do on the court as you cannot see any of us actually officiate. But I do find it funny that guys like you argue these silly things that never happen in games as if your life depends on it.

Peace

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Well I said if you have a case play that suggests otherwise, I will defer to that point of view.

3.4.3C

Note that it applies when the admin errors are both discovered before the game. It's an EXAMPLE of admin errors offsetting.

It does not apply to the OP -- I think most agree that both should be penalized in this instance.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

JRut - what would you do if you called a double-foul on two guys, where neither one was in the book?

Double personal followed by simultaneous T. Resume at POI.

[Coach Bill]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I guess I assumed that you were talking about the topic related to Administrative Ts and it appears I was not alone in that assumption as you were given an answer by someone else related to your question and an Administrative T.

No - actually, you were alone. JAR understood the question and answered it. He knew when I said double foul I was talking about Rule 4-19-8a. You know the one where it has the definition of what a double foul is?

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Since this seems to be hard for you, here is the definition of a double foul in Rule 4-19-8a: "A double personal foul is a situation in which two opponents commits personal fouls against each other at approximately the same time."

Doesn't seem hard to me at all. It's exactly what I'm talking about and everyone (JAR, Camron, Bob) understood except you. It seems hard to you. because it was a very simple question: "double foul, both players discovered at that time not to be in the book. What's the call?" Sounds like Bob has the rulebook answer.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

No - actually, you were alone. JAR understood the question and answered it. He knew when I said double foul I was talking about Rule 4-19-8a. You know the one where it has the definition of what a double foul is?




Doesn't seem hard to me at all. It's exactly what I'm talking about and everyone (JAR, Camron, Bob) understood except you. It seems hard to you. because it was a very simple question: "double foul, both players discovered at that time not to be in the book. What's the call?" Sounds like Bob has the rulebook answer.

Don't take it personally.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Adam

Don't take it personally.

Basically.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

No - actually, you were alone. JAR understood the question and answered it. He knew when I said double foul I was talking about Rule 4-19-8a. You know the one where it has the definition of what a double foul is?




Doesn't seem hard to me at all. It's exactly what I'm talking about and everyone (JAR, Camron, Bob) understood except you. It seems hard to you. because it was a very simple question: "double foul, both players discovered at that time not to be in the book. What's the call?" Sounds like Bob has the rulebook answer.

I will say it to you this way. If that happens, a lot of people dropped the ball. For one if not one, but two players came into the game and we go several minutes without knowing a player's numbers or information is not listed, we have bigger issues. Then those two players happened to commit a double foul, then we have figure out what to do? I am sorry, but that is unlikely where I live for a lot of reasons. For one it is common that both teams keep track of their own books. So someone would be screaming that we have to give a T for one or the other. There would have to be a huge breakdown for this to even happen. But I guess some people on this site have to worry about things. Whatever happen with calling basic fouls and violations? There are officials and coaches cannot understand that fact, but worry about these unusual situations that if they happen will be a first.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I will say it to you this way. If that happens, a lot of people dropped the ball. For one if not one, but two players came into the game and we go several minutes without knowing a player's numbers or information is not listed, we have bigger issues. Then those two players happened to commit a double foul, then we have figure out what to do? I am sorry, but that is unlikely where I live for a lot of reasons. For one it is common that both teams keep track of their own books. So someone would be screaming that we have to give a T for one or the other. There would have to be a huge breakdown for this to even happen. But I guess some people on this site have to worry about things. Whatever happen with calling basic fouls and violations? There are officials and coaches cannot understand that fact, but worry about these unusual situations that if they happen will be a first.

Peace

The likelihood is not in question here; the proper ruling is. Frankly, it would be easy for me. No shots, POI. I'm not going to fuss over timing and ask, "Ok, but which one was discovered first?"

They're changing the book at the same time (which is what the T is for), the techs will offset.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Adam

The likelihood is not in question here; the proper ruling is. Frankly, it would be easy for me. No shots, POI. I'm not going to fuss over timing and ask, "Ok, but which one was discovered first?"

They're changing the book at the same time (which is what the T is for), the techs will offset.

I think the likelihood is in question. At least it would be for me, because I would rather deal with situations that are common and likely. And so much can be done to even prevent this from being an issue as I have and do often go to each coach and ask them to verify the information. And if there are fewer kids in the book ask the coach to explain why so that we do not have an issue later.

And not everyone has been in unison on this issue has some have said to ignore the foul all together and move on. I just think these kinds of discussions get away from basic stuff that a lot of officials cannot get right, but we worry about once in a career situations.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I think the likelihood is in question. At least it would be for me, because I would rather deal with situations that are common and likely. And so much can be done to even prevent this from being an issue as I have and do often go to each coach and ask them to verify the information. And if there are fewer kids in the book ask the coach to explain why so that we do not have an issue later.

And not everyone has been in unison on this issue has some have said to ignore the foul all together and move on. I just think these kinds of discussions get away from basic stuff that a lot of officials cannot get right, but we worry about once in a career situations.

Peace

1. I agree, this could have been prevented by counting the players in the book and on the court (most likely).
2. I agree, it's likelihood is low (we all agree, thus it's not really in question).
3. If you would rather deal with other situations, just bow out of this discussion. Your involvement is welcome, but not required.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Adam

1. I agree, this could have been prevented by counting the players in the book and on the court (most likely).
2. I agree, it's likelihood is low (we all agree, thus it's not really in question).
3. If you would rather deal with other situations, just bow out of this discussion. Your involvement is welcome, but not required.

I answered the question I thought was relevant to this discussion and the OP.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I will say it to you this way. If that happens, a lot of people dropped the ball. For one if not one, but two players came into the game and we go several minutes without knowing a player's numbers or information is not listed, we have bigger issues. Then those two players happened to commit a double foul, then we have figure out what to do? I am sorry, but that is unlikely where I live for a lot of reasons. For one it is common that both teams keep track of their own books. So someone would be screaming that we have to give a T for one or the other. There would have to be a huge breakdown for this to even happen. But I guess some people on this site have to worry about things. Whatever happen with calling basic fouls and violations? There are officials and coaches cannot understand that fact, but worry about these unusual situations that if they happen will be a first.

Peace

In a perfect world, officials would be great at everything. However, that is rarely the case. Instead, officials are usually good at most things and great at a couple and maybe even weak in 1-2 areas. Fortunately, most officials I know are honest enough to realize and be willing to admit where their weaknesses are.

As far as this topic goes, some on this site actually understand the underlying rules and can get situations right should less common things happen in addition to basic fouls and violations because such situations do really happen.

Some people, however, don't have that ability and must wing it when something more rules related happens. Sometimes officials can get away with that but they may occasionally get called on it. The honest ones may be decisive with making a ruling based on their feel and can be great officials in general dong so but they're also willing to admit they're winging it when they're not certain....and that's OK. Others, however, will demand that they were right by either twisting everything they can to avoid admitting they didn't really know what to do or by trying to attack anyone who calls them on it.

I know who I am and I'm OK with it. I may nitpick rules in the context of informal discussions. It is an intellectual pursuit...something some officials are not capable of undertaking. And that is OK. However, I don't work games looking to call every little think I can find that is in the book. Discussions of what-if on the forum serve to expose and explore what the basic rules really mean even if it is done by exploring the nooks and crannies with a microscope. Whatever happens in my games, I'm going to KNOW what can be done, what could be done, and what should be done. And I'll KNOW it is correct by rule too.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

First of all, this is a significant part of what we do here, we debate things that will never happen, just in case they do.

just another ref: Nice post (above).

That's also one reason why I still work Catholic middle school games. These little gym rats do things that you would never see in a high school varsity game, so, on the very rare occasion that the same thing does happen in a high school varsity game, we know how to handle it properly.

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by Adam

1. I agree, this could have been prevented by counting the players in the book and on the court (most likely).
2. I agree, it's likelihood is low (we all agree, thus it's not really in question).
3. If you would rather deal with other situations, just bow out of this discussion. Your involvement is welcome, but not required.

In our area...sometimes #1 is not reliable in the second game of a JV/V doubleheader where you have a player that plays on both teams and comes onto the court late during the warmup or into the first quarter.