Simultaneous Foul... or not??

[shavano]

GJV last night:

White 14 is fouled by Red 5 while attempting a 3, which was unsuccessful. At same time White 2 pushed Red 11 in the back while jostling for rebound position. Both L and C hit their whistles together.

I was "senior" guy on court ( T @ time of play), and huddled with the crew. We decided that we had a simultaneous foul, when whistles blew the ball was loose on ground.

Both officials reported their respective fouls, and we went to the arrow since there was no team in control at time when play was stopped.

I thought we had called it correctly, but a couple of our "more senior" guys said that we should have called the foul against the shooter, dismissed the contact by White 2 as incidental and have White 14 on the line for 3FT.

HTBT, but any opinions? Did we kick it?

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by shavano

I thought we had called it correctly, but a couple of our "more senior" guys said that we should have called the foul against the shooter, dismissed the contact by White 2 as incidental and have White 14 on the line for 3FT.

If they're saying a push during a rebound is always incidental if there's a shooting foul, I disagree. In this situation, White-2 cost White-14's free throwing via the advantageous contact.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by shavano

GJV last night:

White 14 is fouled by Red 5 while attempting a 3, which was unsuccessful.

when whistles blew the ball was loose on ground.

The ball being loose on the ground indicates that the shot attempt had already ended unsuccessfully, thus making the ball dead. The foul on the shooter had to be the cause of the ball being loose on the floor rather than in the air on its way towards the basket. Therefore, it had to happen prior to the ball being on the floor. The off ball foul wasn't called until the ball was on the floor. That would have to be a dead ball foul. I would have ignored the off ball foul, unless it was intentional or flagrant, and award the 3 shots. If the off ball foul was intentional or flagrant, it would be a technical foul and both fouls would have been penalized.

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by johnny d

The ball being loose on the ground indicates that the shot attempt had already ended unsuccessfully, thus making the ball dead. The foul on the shooter had to be the cause of the ball being loose on the floor rather than in the air on its way towards the basket. Therefore, it had to happen prior to the ball being on the floor. The off ball foul wasn't called until the ball was on the floor. That would have to be a dead ball foul. I would have ignored the off ball foul, unless it was intentional or flagrant, and award the 3 shots. If the off ball foul was intentional or flagrant, it would be a technical foul and both fouls would have been penalized.

The description in the op wasnt that bad but i dont think your timeline matches.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

The description in the op wasnt that bad but i dont think your timeline matches.

My timeline? I quoted the OP. "When the whistles blew, the ball was loose on the ground." Those weren't my words, they were from the author. Ball on the ground means shot attempt is over and the ball is dead. At that point, off ball foul should be ignored unless it is intentional or flagrant. Seems pretty simple to me.

[SNIPERBBB]

Ball on the ground.has nothing do with anything. Fouls on a 3pt shooter are often late in occurring and often called as shooting fouls when they are not.

Pending a better timeline/description we are stuck.

[shavano]

I thought I was accurate in describing the play.. What questions do you guys have?

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by johnny d

The ball being loose on the ground indicates that the shot attempt had already ended unsuccessfully, thus making the ball dead.

Since when does a loose ball on the ground make it dead after a 3 point attempt? Are you sure you're not confusing this with a FT Attempt?

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

Since when does a loose ball on the ground make it dead after a 3 point attempt? Are you sure you're not confusing this with a FT Attempt?

I think he's trying to figure out whether the shooter is considered to be an "airborne shooter" and going from there.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

Since when does a loose ball on the ground make it dead after a 3 point attempt? Are you sure you're not confusing this with a FT Attempt?

When there was a foul on the shot, the ball remains live until the try is over.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by Adam

When there was a foul on the shot, the ball remains live until the try is over.

That's true, otherwise you would hardly ever have an "and one". But I don't recall that rule applying to this case.

I'm avoiding a simultaneous, or multiple, foul as much as possible. I feel like we're talking ourselves into trouble (or at least an unnecessary lengthy explanation to the coaches) here.

[shavano]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

That's true, otherwise you would hardly ever have an "and one". But I don't recall that rule applying to this case.

I'm avoiding a simultaneous, or multiple, foul as much as possible. I feel like we're talking ourselves into trouble (or at least an unnecessary lengthy explanation to the coaches) here.

We did bring coaches together, and both seemed satisfied with the decision. Of course White wanted the 3 FT, but calmed down after we explained our reasoning. Total conference time with the coaches was 15-20 seconds...

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

Since when does a loose ball on the ground make it dead after a 3 point attempt? Are you sure you're not confusing this with a FT Attempt?

I am assuming that it isn't David Blaine shooting while doing his levitation trick or Neo shooting in the Matrix. Most of the time a person shooting a jump shot is going to land long before the ball hits the floor. If the shooter is no longer airborne, the ball becomes dead when it is certain that the shot is not going to be good. I think when the ball is bouncing on the floor, the shot isn't going to be good.