Vid request-Uconn BC First half 1:55 (Clip Added)

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It is obvious to me based on your comments, you are not in an area that really breaks down plays. We break down plays here.

Officials break down plays everywhere, JRut. Including on this Forum. Including right now in this very thread. This is an ad hominem attack.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The official called a "block" against the defender. He did not call a push off PC foul. Now what are you going to do, tell him he cannot work anymore?

No one is saying this, and it is absurd to suggest that anyone here is saying this. In fact, this is a Slippery Slope argument.

JRut, I have noticed you tend to defend officials based on the level that they work. I have rarely, if ever, seen you disagree with a D1 official on what he called. In cases like these, you seem to try to find justification for what he saw and why he called what he did. You are doing that in this very thread.

I have yet to see a poster in this thread agree with your defense of the block call. Numbers alone cannot quantify who is right, but with 1 person in this thread defending block and 8 or 9 defending PC this seems to suggest you are alone in your belief.

[Adam]

Sigh.

Keep it from getting personal, folks.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Officials break down plays everywhere, JRut. Including on this Forum. Including right now in this very thread. This is an ad hominem attack.



No one is saying this, and it is absurd to suggest that anyone here is saying this. In fact, this is a Slippery Slope argument.

JRut, I have noticed you tend to defend officials based on the level that they work. I have rarely, if ever, seen you disagree with a D1 official on what he called. In cases like these, you seem to try to find justification for what he saw and why he called what he did. You are doing that in this very thread.

I have yet to see a poster in this thread agree with your defense of the block call. Numbers alone cannot quantify who is right, but with 1 person in this thread defending block and 8 or 9 defending PC this seems to suggest you are alone in your belief.

You seem obsessed with the level we are talking about on more than one occasion. Even in basic plays you talk about, "Well in high school that is a foul......" Well I can tell you I do not call anything differently from the college level to the high school level as it relates to contact. I have the same approach and call the same game. The difference is often the overall training that officials at the college level tend to have and the philosophies they subscribe to. The only thing I ever worry about when working a college game or a high school game is the rules that might apply which is a minimal difference. Actually this year there is a major difference and that is only with the block/charge with an airborne shooter. But how I called hand-checking, illegal screens and other things the NCAA talked about was never that different for me. And if those I worked for did not like it, they could hire someone else. Well I have never been fired for calling my game and in many cases got more games as a result of my approach. Our state now has started to adopt the RSBQ philosophy and we have been doing this for years and talking about for years as clinicians at the high school level. So honestly, I have no idea what the hell you are talking about.

BTW, this was my very first statement on this play in this very thread.

I do not have anything on the defender for sure. I probably do not have a PC foul either at any level either. The extended arm does not appear to be the reason their is separation, it looks like the momentum of the players is what caused the separation, not an illegal action. Play on IMO.

Where did I defend the official in this play?

Reading is fundamental.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The extended arm does not appear to be the reason their is separation, it looks like the momentum of the players is what caused the separation, not an illegal action. Play on IMO.

Peace

Originally Posted by JRutledge

BTW, this was my very first statement on this play in this very thread.


Where did I defend the official in this play?

Reading is fundamental.

Peace

Yes, reading is fundamental. But so is watching the video with a basic understanding of elementary physics. Without both, you may come to a nonsense conclusion.

My point and the primary point being made by most was not about you defending the block call but claiming that the defender's momentum caused the separation and not being due to the offensive player pushing off. Anyone who has successfully completed elementary science would know different yet you persist in claiming that the defender's momentum is responsible for him dramatically changing direction. I suggest you go read up a little bit on what momentum is. But somehow, I doubt that your reading it would help.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

OK, I just do not agree with you. And the call was not made that way and it is really not that big of a deal. When you work that game you make whatever damn call you want to make. I honestly do not give a damn. I know what I saw and I know what I feel about the play. I see this as a play on and you have yet to show me any directive of the freedom movement that addresses this specific action by the dribbler. Maybe because you are talking out of the place you often do when it comes to these issues. I am sure you see really good basketball in Oregon.

Peace

Why is this a play on? The defense player doesn't make contact. The offensive player displaces the defensive player. I am sure if the defense player would have extended his arm and displaced the offensive player you would have had a foul on him. Why does the offense get a pass?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Why is this a play on? The defense player doesn't make contact. The offensive player displaces the defensive player. I am sure if the defense player would have extended his arm and displaced the offensive player you would have had a foul on him. Why does the offense get a pass?

I did not say there was absolutely no contact. And contact in itself is not a foul guys. The rules for incidental contact did not go away with these new directives (that really are not new, just put directly in the rules in NCAA Men's). And in the official's position he felt right or wrong that the defender moved towards the ball handler. I do not agree with that call, but I can see why he made that call. And in my opinion the way the ball handler stopped the defender kept going backwards.

First of all I call more PC fouls than anyone on this site. If you do not believe me, I will show you tape. I almost never call blocks on these kinds of plays. So this crap about why the offense gets a pass is silly and stupid if you have either officiated with me or heard me give a presentation on these kinds of plays. I just do not think the movement was the cause of that arm. I think I have the right to feel that way. IT IS CALLED JUDGMENT!!!!! I think if he was pushed off, he would have fell down based on his momentum or he would have been totally off balance. He basically stayed in front of him and that is not a foul to me. Ball handlers often give the motion with their arm, that does not mean they displaced their opponent.

Peace

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I did not say there was absolutely no contact. And contact in itself is not a foul guys. The rules for incidental contact did not go away with these new directives (that really are not new, just put directly in the rules in NCAA Men's). And in the official's position he felt right or wrong that the defender moved towards the ball handler. I do not agree with that call, but I can see why he made that call. And in my opinion the way the ball handler stopped the defender kept going backwards.

First of all I call more PC fouls than anyone on this site. If you do not believe me, I will show you tape. I almost never call blocks on these kinds of plays. So this crap about why the offense gets a pass is silly and stupid if you have either officiated with me or heard me give a presentation on these kinds of plays. I just do not think the movement was the cause of that arm. I think I have the right to feel that way. IT IS CALLED JUDGMENT!!!!! I think if he was pushed off, he would have fell down based on his momentum or he would have been totally off balance. He basically stayed in front of him and that is not a foul to me. Ball handlers often give the motion with their arm, that does not mean they displaced their opponent.

Peace

What caused the movement? The defender was moving laterally, then arm extended, and moves backwards. Did the defender just start moving backwards on his own?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by OKREF

What caused the movement? The defender was moving laterally, then arm extended, and moves backwards. Did the defender just start moving backwards on his own? Surely your not saying that this was incidental contact. If this is your judgment, then I must say in my opinion your judgment is not very good.

It is a block-charge play that you could argue either way.

Again this is about judgment. This is why when most clinicians evaluate officials they do not go around arguing whether a judgment was right or wrong. They often discuss why they saw on any given play. I would like to know why the official called this foul. After all he did have a differnet angle and called a block, not something I am arguing should have been called. I think the so-called "push off" you keep referencing was not much or any of a push off. Just because someone's arm moves does not make those situations a foul. And even in hand-checking, you have to affect RSBQ to have a foul. A simply touch where the arm is retreating or not extended does not necessarily fit the directives of the NCAA. I am once again not asking you to agree. I have just seen a lot of similar plays where I am not convinced the ball handler pushed off. Then again I have seen a lot of plays where I feel the dribbler pushed off and have called fouls based on that action. Usually making those calls gets you a lot of crap and a coach starts talking about how the defender was "moving." And yes, I am saying this play to me was nothing. It was two players basically bumping into each other with no clear advantage. I have a right to feel that way. I have seen this play before many times. If you want to call a foul, go right ahead. I would not honestly care because it is your judgment. That is after all why we get paid to make these decisions. And in a game 1920 seconds you can make a decision on any given play. This is just one of them and not a game changer either way. This call did not decide the game and the calling official (who I give more credit for) called a block on this play, not a PC foul like you and others suggest are the only way to go.

Peace

[just another ref]

To summarize: This is a video of a bad call. Why was this bad call made? Hard to say, but making this bad call does not make the official who made it a bad person, but, with the benefit of slow motion replay which we are fortunate enough to have here, I feel certain that the official in question would agree that it was, indeed, a bad call. Practically everyone else does.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by AremRed

JRut, I have noticed you tend to defend officials based on the level that they work. I have rarely, if ever, seen you disagree with a D1 official on what he called. In cases like these, you seem to try to find justification for what he saw and why he called what he did. You are doing that in this very thread.

I have yet to see a poster in this thread agree with your defense of the block call. Numbers alone cannot quantify who is right, but with 1 person in this thread defending block and 8 or 9 defending PC this seems to suggest you are alone in your belief.

I've noticed this as well. You just said it better then I was going to.

Seems to be a pretty clear offensive foul to me.