Vid request-Uconn BC First half 1:55 (Clip Added)

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Show us where this play is in the video? Or show the reference in the rulebook to this kind of action. You say it is there, well I am from Missouri.

Peace

What???

Have you been drinking or something?

The play posted was absolutely contact by/on a ballhandler.

References in the rulebook to contact on/by a ballhandler?? Uhmmm, there are quite a few.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It is obvious to me based on your comments, you are not in an area that really breaks down plays. We break down plays here.

Officials break down plays everywhere, JRut. Including on this Forum. Including right now in this very thread. This is an ad hominem attack.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The official called a "block" against the defender. He did not call a push off PC foul. Now what are you going to do, tell him he cannot work anymore?

No one is saying this, and it is absurd to suggest that anyone here is saying this. In fact, this is a Slippery Slope argument.

JRut, I have noticed you tend to defend officials based on the level that they work. I have rarely, if ever, seen you disagree with a D1 official on what he called. In cases like these, you seem to try to find justification for what he saw and why he called what he did. You are doing that in this very thread.

I have yet to see a poster in this thread agree with your defense of the block call. Numbers alone cannot quantify who is right, but with 1 person in this thread defending block and 8 or 9 defending PC this seems to suggest you are alone in your belief.

[Adam]

Sigh.

Keep it from getting personal, folks.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It is obvious to me based on your comments, you are not in an area that really breaks down plays. We break down plays here. This kind of play is talked about in detail and if the defender did anything wrong and if the arm was illegal. And I am confident that a lot of people would have had different opinions as to the level of contact and advantage. And that is why I used the football example because in PI plays, there is a lot of debate of when or if contact influenced the play and a foul should be called. And in those videos there are situations where officials have been accused of being "too technical" in their calling such fouls. Sorry, you do not understand that fact or even want to discuss. I never said you were wrong, I just said that I do not think the arm was the result of the contact being illegal. Oh well.

Peace

What is clear is that you live in an imaginary world and only see what you want to see on videos. Your descriptions of the play in this case and all too many other cases just don't match what is in the video...sometimes to the point of absurdity. It isn't even a matter of breaking down the play, you actually have to be honest about what is clearly visible on the video before you can properly break down plays. When you fabricate things that just aren't there to make your point, you lose all credibility. I know things are different in Chicago and maybe that is the way things are done in your area but the rest of the country calls plays based on what really happened.


I had typed a bunch more stuff here but decided to delete it. The obvious doesn't need to be posted.

[Rich]

All this discussion (which I, thankfully, missed) over one missed call.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by johnny d

I am just curious as to how you think a call (correct or incorrect) or non-call on this type of play is in any way remotely related to the "strong" directives coming from the NCAA on the men's side? Perhaps the NCAA-W directives are different (I wouldn't know), but this type of play has nothing to do with the directives on the men's side. Your statement above is pure hyperbole.

Just because I felt left out…

On the NCAAW side there would be a call here. I’m not going to jump into the debate on what the call would/should be but yes, NCAAW would expect a whistle on this play.

[BryanV21]

The defender was moving sideways, but suddenly fell backwards. Looks like a PC foul to me.

Personally, I think defenders are too often to blame for contact.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

All this discussion (which I, thankfully, missed) over one missed call.

Apparently this is the most important issue to some of these people.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by AremRed

Officials break down plays everywhere, JRut. Including on this Forum. Including right now in this very thread. This is an ad hominem attack.



No one is saying this, and it is absurd to suggest that anyone here is saying this. In fact, this is a Slippery Slope argument.

JRut, I have noticed you tend to defend officials based on the level that they work. I have rarely, if ever, seen you disagree with a D1 official on what he called. In cases like these, you seem to try to find justification for what he saw and why he called what he did. You are doing that in this very thread.

I have yet to see a poster in this thread agree with your defense of the block call. Numbers alone cannot quantify who is right, but with 1 person in this thread defending block and 8 or 9 defending PC this seems to suggest you are alone in your belief.

You seem obsessed with the level we are talking about on more than one occasion. Even in basic plays you talk about, "Well in high school that is a foul......" Well I can tell you I do not call anything differently from the college level to the high school level as it relates to contact. I have the same approach and call the same game. The difference is often the overall training that officials at the college level tend to have and the philosophies they subscribe to. The only thing I ever worry about when working a college game or a high school game is the rules that might apply which is a minimal difference. Actually this year there is a major difference and that is only with the block/charge with an airborne shooter. But how I called hand-checking, illegal screens and other things the NCAA talked about was never that different for me. And if those I worked for did not like it, they could hire someone else. Well I have never been fired for calling my game and in many cases got more games as a result of my approach. Our state now has started to adopt the RSBQ philosophy and we have been doing this for years and talking about for years as clinicians at the high school level. So honestly, I have no idea what the hell you are talking about.

BTW, this was my very first statement on this play in this very thread.

I do not have anything on the defender for sure. I probably do not have a PC foul either at any level either. The extended arm does not appear to be the reason their is separation, it looks like the momentum of the players is what caused the separation, not an illegal action. Play on IMO.

Where did I defend the official in this play?

Reading is fundamental.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

What???

Have you been drinking or something?

The play posted was absolutely contact by/on a ballhandler.

References in the rulebook to contact on/by a ballhandler?? Uhmmm, there are quite a few.

Why was it called against the defender? It was absolutely a foul on the ball handler right?

Oh and show them please? Remember there are two different rulebooks now.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The extended arm does not appear to be the reason their is separation, it looks like the momentum of the players is what caused the separation, not an illegal action. Play on IMO.

Peace

Originally Posted by JRutledge

BTW, this was my very first statement on this play in this very thread.


Where did I defend the official in this play?

Reading is fundamental.

Peace

Yes, reading is fundamental. But so is watching the video with a basic understanding of elementary physics. Without both, you may come to a nonsense conclusion.

My point and the primary point being made by most was not about you defending the block call but claiming that the defender's momentum caused the separation and not being due to the offensive player pushing off. Anyone who has successfully completed elementary science would know different yet you persist in claiming that the defender's momentum is responsible for him dramatically changing direction. I suggest you go read up a little bit on what momentum is. But somehow, I doubt that your reading it would help.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by AremRed

JRut, I have noticed you tend to defend officials based on the level that they work. I have rarely, if ever, seen you disagree with a D1 official on what he called. In cases like these, you seem to try to find justification for what he saw and why he called what he did. You are doing that in this very thread.

I have yet to see a poster in this thread agree with your defense of the block call. Numbers alone cannot quantify who is right, but with 1 person in this thread defending block and 8 or 9 defending PC this seems to suggest you are alone in your belief.

I've noticed this as well. You just said it better then I was going to.

Seems to be a pretty clear offensive foul to me.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

OK, I just do not agree with you. And the call was not made that way and it is really not that big of a deal. When you work that game you make whatever damn call you want to make. I honestly do not give a damn. I know what I saw and I know what I feel about the play. I see this as a play on and you have yet to show me any directive of the freedom movement that addresses this specific action by the dribbler. Maybe because you are talking out of the place you often do when it comes to these issues. I am sure you see really good basketball in Oregon.

Peace

Why is this a play on? The defense player doesn't make contact. The offensive player displaces the defensive player. I am sure if the defense player would have extended his arm and displaced the offensive player you would have had a foul on him. Why does the offense get a pass?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Why is this a play on? The defense player doesn't make contact. The offensive player displaces the defensive player. I am sure if the defense player would have extended his arm and displaced the offensive player you would have had a foul on him. Why does the offense get a pass?

I did not say there was absolutely no contact. And contact in itself is not a foul guys. The rules for incidental contact did not go away with these new directives (that really are not new, just put directly in the rules in NCAA Men's). And in the official's position he felt right or wrong that the defender moved towards the ball handler. I do not agree with that call, but I can see why he made that call. And in my opinion the way the ball handler stopped the defender kept going backwards.

First of all I call more PC fouls than anyone on this site. If you do not believe me, I will show you tape. I almost never call blocks on these kinds of plays. So this crap about why the offense gets a pass is silly and stupid if you have either officiated with me or heard me give a presentation on these kinds of plays. I just do not think the movement was the cause of that arm. I think I have the right to feel that way. IT IS CALLED JUDGMENT!!!!! I think if he was pushed off, he would have fell down based on his momentum or he would have been totally off balance. He basically stayed in front of him and that is not a foul to me. Ball handlers often give the motion with their arm, that does not mean they displaced their opponent.

Peace

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Contact on/by the ball handler is not one of the directives from the NCAA???

This play is a block/charge play. It is not a hand checking or freedom of movement play. This is not the type of play that lead to the directive on the NCAA-M side.

We can argue all day whether or not the right call was made. I wasn't addressing that issue at all. But it is ridiculous to suggest that this type of play and the possibility that it wasn't called correctly have anything at all to do with the NCAA-M directive.