How does your state rank?

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by j51969

This is the first year IL is solely using Coaches ratings. To my knowledge there isn't a lot of guidance for how this will actually shake out. My association is currently drafting a letter the IHSA with our concerns. The old numerical system factored in points for being selected in the top 15 of your association, and ratings by other certified officials. The coaches in my opinion have never done a good job in rating varsity officials after games (In a timely manner, or at all). Even though I have 20+ in basketball, this is only my 6th year here in IL. I am only recognized at this point. Until I can take my test to be certified next year I won’t get a sniff of the tournament no matter how well I am rated. No system is perfect and I believe without max participation this will be a step backwards. Talking to many Varsity coaches a big complaint is seeing many of the same officials year after year. However, when the rubber meets the road they rate many of same guys at the top each year. I guess familiarity is preferred over taking a chance on someone new. I also believe this is why many good young officials move toward putting more effort in small college basketball. Theory being if you have to put as much effort into cementing yourself in the High School scene, why not use that time to advance to the next level. After what happened in the 2A championship I am sure they are looking for ways to mitigate this from happening again. JMO

So what exactly are you advocating for? According to you, the same guys are working the playoffs year after year. I hate to tell you, but that has been going on since before officials could rate each other and associations could submit top 15 lists, while officials could rate each other and associations submitted top 15 lists, and will continue now that officials and associations no longer have that power.

I hate to burst your bubble, but the same thing happens in college basketball as well. Coaches can and will complain all the time about some guys being too old, past their prime, or working and traveling to too many games. They will insist that the system needs to change. Guess what happens when they see new guys or young guys on their games.....they are on the phone telling the assignor they want the old familiar guys back on their games. Work the other guys on someone else's games.

[j51969]

Originally Posted by johnny d

So what exactly are you advocating for? According to you, the same guys are working the playoffs year after year. I hate to tell you, but that has been going on since before officials could rate each other and associations could submit top 15 lists, while officials could rate each other and associations submitted top 15 lists, and will continue now that officials and associations no longer have that power.

I hate to burst your bubble, but the same thing happens in college basketball as well. Coaches can and will complain all the time about some guys being too old, past their prime, or working and traveling to too many games. They will insist that the system needs to change. Guess what happens when they see new guys or young guys on their games.....they are on the phone telling the assignor they want the old familiar guys back on their games. Work the other guys on someone else's games.

1. None of this is according to me. I believe I stated that these are based on conversations with coaches/officials who have been a part of IL basketball for a long time. I moved here from Indianapolis in 2007. The exact same complaints and gripes were going on there regardless of what system was in place. Coaches and officials year after year talk about the same issues.

2. I am not really an advocate of any system. If I eventually get a game in the HS playoffs great, and if I don't that's ok. Personally as a full time Soldier I move around a lot. I have lived as far north as Loves Park, IL and as far south as Benton, IL. Currently I have moved back to the Central part of the state in Champaign. Each time I have to join associations that will help me start over (nature of the beast).

3. As far as the good ole boy system, that's life. Sometimes is helps you and sometimes it hurts you. Basketball aside this is how business get conducted every day. I couldn't get anything accomplished if it weren't for the personal relationships I collected over the years. So why should basketball be any different? Not sure if you’re aware, but the military has a few type A personalities in it as well (Coaches/Officials). None of this affects me directly.

Are you somehow connected to the decision making involving the assigning of IL HS basketball officials? If so, maybe you are taking exception to my comments. Otherwise, nothing you said was news to anyone who works in a competitive field.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by j51969

1. None of this is according to me. I believe I stated that these are based on conversations with coaches/officials who have been a part of IL basketball for a long time. I moved here from Indianapolis in 2007. The exact same complaints and gripes were going on there regardless of what system was in place. Coaches and officials year after year talk about the same issues.

2. I am not really an advocate of any system. If I eventually get a game in the HS playoffs great, and if I don't that's ok. Personally as a full time Soldier I move around a lot. I have lived as far north as Loves Park, IL and as far south as Benton, IL. Currently I have moved back to the Central part of the state in Champaign. Each time I have to join associations that will help me start over (nature of the beast).

3. As far as the good ole boy system, that's life. Sometimes is helps you and sometimes it hurts you. Basketball aside this is how business get conducted every day. I couldn't get anything accomplished if it weren't for the personal relationships I collected over the years. So why should basketball be any different? Not sure if you’re aware, but the military has a few type A personalities in it as well (Coaches/Officials). None of this affects me directly.

Are you somehow connected to the decision making involving the assigning of IL HS basketball officials? If so, maybe you are taking exception to my comments. Otherwise, nothing you said was news to anyone who works in a competitive field.

I am not involved in assigning or decision making for IHSA in any manner. I was just responding to your statement that your association was writing a letter regarding the groups concerns about the new rating system and connecting that to your conversations with coaches/officials that complain that the same people continue to do all the playoff games. My point was that those same people were doing all the playoff games in the old system, in the previous system that just ended, and most likely in the new system just implemented. So I wasn't sure exactly what or how your association wants the IHSA to change.

My second point, was that things are not much different at the college level as far as guys getting games and other officials/coaches complaining about how many games they work.

My last point, and I think we agree here, is that the same people doing most of the complaining (i.e. coaches) are the ones that have the most ability to change the situation and yet do the least to effect change or complain even louder when the change affects them.

[Scratch85]

j51969, looks like you ended up in the same situation that you left in IN. It was great last year, my State Assoc. made a few changes that allowed us to have a say in our rating. They pretty much took that away this year and we are in a worst case scenario now. The only advantage anyone has is how far you have gone in the post season. So it knocks the new guys back even farther.

johnny d, you are spot on. It has been going on forever at all levels and will continue to go on.

Here is the caveat; It fits the State Associations perfectly and there is no reason to change. And, there shouldn't be reason to change. It is not our games as refs. It is the schools games and we are just part of it. We are there to accomodate the schools and the State Associations. It is the field that we play on.

yea, I figure caveat needs some of those French thing-a-ma-jigs in there somewhere but I haven't any idea how to do that.

Call the game that you feel is proper and everything else takes care of itself. If that doesn't provide what you are after, change the game you call. Or go fight the battle elsewhere, but it will be much the same.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

The OhioHSAA has a system where the varsity coaches tell the assigners what officials are acceptabale to officiate. Kind of like letting the inmates run the prison. Camron, this is the system that is better than yours, LOL!

MTD, Sr.

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

The OhioHSAA has a system where the varsity coaches tell the assigners what officials are acceptabale to officiate. Kind of like letting the inmates run the prison. Camron, this is the system that is better than yours, LOL!

MTD, Sr.

Just to expand on Mark's comments, at one time the OHSAA used a system based solely on voting by the coaches and have since changed to a system/formula that takes input from coaches, assignors, AD's and local officials associations. I got a bit of a late start and am now entering my
30th season at age 64. I have been rewarded very well under both systems (for which I am very grateful) basically by doing what BatteryPowered and Scratch85 have suggested and maintaining a positive mental attitude.

[JRutledge]

The system in Illinois is based on a Power Rating system, not a coach's rating system. And right or wrong that system is only a way to objectively compile some numbers and information about what an official has done during their season or career. The system is based on 40 point system which only 5 points are dedicated to coach's ratings. And I can tell you for a fact that officials are observed and evaluated for further playoff advancement. And the same officials working the playoffs is often a myth. Yes, some of the same officials work year after year, but they usually are the top people at least on the boy's side that are consistently doing the bigger games by their conference or tournament assignors. That is not much different than the NCAA level. Watch who works the bigger tournaments or games, chances are they are working deep in the NCAA tournament. Also in Illinois the genders and classes are separated. You get a different rating for each gendar and if you work very little of one class, you are not likely to work playoffs. I live in the Chicago area, I am not likely going to work the smaller classes because we do not have the same access to the amount of smaller schools. And the assignments for the entire state are made by one person per gender as well. And they can consider factors that have nothing to do with the Power Rating like geography, years of experience and what kind of games you work like rivalries or top teams in your area.

Peace

[johnny d]

JRut, I agree with you on most of your points on the system in Illinois. Also, I don't have a dog in this show......I do many more college games now than HS so it doesn't really matter to me one way or the other whether I ever go further in the playoffs than I do now. That being said, it is not a myth that the same guys work every year. They might not be doing supers or going down state, but they continue to work regionals and sectionals. Once you get a full regional you will continue to get a full regional until you are dead or quit officiating. Look at some of the names. There are guys that have been officiating for 25+ years and who are well past their prime still working those rounds of the playoffs. If I was a good, young official hoping to make a run in the state playoffs, it would be discouraging to see that.