VID Request duke vs Kansas (Video added)

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by ballgame99

Looks legal. Gather occurs after he leaves the floor, so he is allowed a pivot foot when he lands.

you must be watching a different video.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by ballgame99

Looks legal. Gather occurs after he leaves the floor, so he is allowed a pivot foot when he lands.

Really????

Originally Posted by johnny d

you must be watching a different video.

Agree.

It always baffles me that people try to apply a definition that doesn't exist. There is no such thing as "gather". All you have to know is when did the dribble end? And that is when he got his hand under the ball and caught it. If he had put the ball back down at that point, it would have been a carry (which is just a variation of a travel). There is no such concept like in football that requires that a player bring it into their body or any such thing before it can be considered caught.

[ballgame99]

Hey I'm not a fan of poorly executed jump stops and think way to many of them are allowed to be no-called, but this one it is not clear when his dribble ends. He does a hard dribble down and then jumps off one foot. Somewhere in there his dribble ends. I can't tell when that is. If his dribble ends when he has already left the ground he is allowed to have a pivot foot when he returns to the floor, which is what he does.

I certainly wouldn't argue if this was called a travel because it is very bang/bang, but I'm not going to argue when it gets no called either.

[johnny d]

Then we will have to disagree about how close or hard it is to look at this replay and decide when his dribble ended.

As for the crew viewing this play in real time. I think the official that will be the lead has a good look at when he ended his dribble. After that, his look isn't so good. He has 1 other duke player and 3 Kansas players in his way. Probably happened because he was getting beat on the play and was more worried about missing a foul than a travel. By continuing to try to get to the end line, he put himself in a worse position.

I actually think the C has a good look at this play and is in the best position to call the travel.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ballgame99

Hey I'm not a fan of poorly executed jump stops and think way to many of them are allowed to be no-called, but this one it is not clear when his dribble ends. He does a hard dribble down and then jumps off one foot. Somewhere in there his dribble ends. I can't tell when that is. If his dribble ends when he has already left the ground he is allowed to have a pivot foot when he returns to the floor, which is what he does.

I certainly wouldn't argue if this was called a travel because it is very bang/bang, but I'm not going to argue when it gets no called either.

This is my take. I think he ends the dribble in the air. It is not about the last foot that was on the ground that only matters, it is when they dribble stops and that occurs when he grabs the ball. And it is not obvious, it is not a violation. I am always going to give a player the benefit of the doubt. In a real game we cannot slow it down and see when the exact moment something happens all the time. And when you might not have the angle it makes it harder.

Peace

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

it is when they dribble stops and that occurs when he grabs the ball.

The bolded part of this statement is not accurate.

Art. 4. The dribble ends when:
a. The dribbler catches or carries/palms the ball by allowing it to come to rest
in one or both hands

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by johnny d

The bolded part of this statement is not accurate.

Art. 4. The dribble ends when:
a. The dribbler catches or carries/palms the ball by allowing it to come to rest
in one or both hands

That is really not anything different then what I am saying. And it is really in question of the ball came to rest in his hands until he was in the air.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Really????



Agree.

It always baffles me that people try to apply a definition that doesn't exist. There is no such thing as "gather". All you have to know is when did the dribble end? And that is when he got his hand under the ball and caught it. If he had put the ball back down at that point, it would have been a carry (which is just a variation of a travel). There is no such concept like in football that requires that a player bring it into their body or any such thing before it can be considered caught.

The dribble ending does not necessarily mean he's holding the ball. Normally, they're at the same time, and I think they are on this video, but it's not always the case.

Edit: I was answering to the wrong video. After watching this video, I can't tell when he actually starts holding the ball. I don't think he starts holding it until he's in the air, as it looks like he bumps it into the air while trying to grab it, but doesn't actually grab it immediately.

Either way, since I can't tell, I wouldn't make this call.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Adam

The dribble ending does not necessarily mean he's holding the ball. Normally, they're at the same time, and I think they are on this video, but it's not always the case.

Edit: I was answering to the wrong video. After watching this video, I can't tell when he actually starts holding the ball. I don't think he starts holding it until he's in the air, as it looks like he bumps it into the air while trying to grab it, but doesn't actually grab it immediately.

Either way, since I can't tell, I wouldn't make this call.

When he scoops the hand underneath, that is when he is holding it.. There is no gap between dribbling and holding unless they lose control of the ball. If there comes a point where you are not going to let them put down another dribble without it being an illegal dribble or a carry, they're holding it. It doesn't take two hands to hold the ball as some would have you believe. The "hold" begins at the same moment the dribble ends, even if it is just one hand.

Looking at it another way...if they fouled someone at that very moment, would you have a PC foul? If you answer yes, you must then be saying they are dribbling or holding the ball. If the they had ended the dribble, then they were, be it being the only option left, holding the ball.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

When he scoops the hand underneath, that is when he is holding it.. There is no gap between dribbling and holding unless they lose control of the ball. If there comes a point where you are not going to let them put down another dribble without it being an illegal dribble or a carry, they're holding it. It doesn't take two hands to hold the ball as some would have you believe. The "hold" begins at the same moment the dribble ends, even if it is just one hand.

Looking at it another way...if they fouled someone at that very moment, would you have a PC foul? If you answer yes, you must then be saying they are dribbling or holding the ball. If the they had ended the dribble, then they were, be it being the only option left, holding the ball.

I do not think anyone is suggesting that you have to have two hands on the ball to end a dribble. We can call a carry with just one hand under the ball. But it appears the dribble never really ends until he is jumping in the air. It is also hard to tell as the ball is facing away from the camera angle for the most part, but the ball does not appear to be under his hands until he is already jumped. You will disagree, but it is certainly not "obvious" as some want to make this play out to be. It is very close. And if it is very close, I am giving the player the benefit of the doubt.

Peace