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-   -   Deflected Throw-In Goes In (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/96436-deflected-throw-goes.html)

rockyroad Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:06am

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP (Post 909583)
I agree with the 2-points rulings here, but I'd want to be careful not to mistakenly state that it's 2 because "you can score a 3-pt. basket from a throw-in," since the throw-in technically ended on the defensive deflection - even though that's essentially how we're logically getting there.

OK then...how about we say that you can't score a 3 at your opponents basket?

HawkeyeCubP Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:10am

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad (Post 909585)
OK then...how about we say that you can't score a 3 at your opponents basket?

Sure. But the OP was toward and into A's basket.

rockyroad Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:31am

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP (Post 909587)
Sure. But the OP was toward and into A's basket.

It was a throw-in. Ended when touched by defender. Can't score 3 in opponents basket.

bob jenkins Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:34am

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP (Post 909583)
I agree with the 2-points rulings here, but I'd want to be careful not to mistakenly state that it's 2 because "you can score a 3-pt. basket from a throw-in," since the throw-in technically ended on the defensive deflection - even though that's essentially how we're logically getting there.


"If the original release had no chance at being worth three points, then the deflection can't be worth three points."

(edit: NCAA interp only. FED might be different.)

HawkeyeCubP Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:35am

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad (Post 909591)
It was a throw-in. Ended when touched by defender. Can't score 3 in opponents basket.

I think I see where you're going. But it's still a pass by A that goes into A's basket. It's not B scoring at A's basket.

HawkeyeCubP Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:35am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 909592)
"If the original release had no chance at being worth three points, then the deflection can't be worth three points."

I like it.

HokiePaul Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:11pm

I can't find a case on this, but I remember my association's interpreter giving a similar example when I went through training a couple years ago.

A1, outside the three point line attempts to throw the ball into the post. B1, also outside the 3 point line, deflects the pass and it goes into the basket. I'm 99% sure the instruction was "3 points" [FED rules]

Does the fact that the original pass was a throw in change the ruling?

HawkeyeCubP Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by HokiePaul (Post 909599)
I can't find a case on this, but I remember my association's interpreter giving a similar example when I went through training a couple years ago.

A1, outside the three point line attempts to throw the ball into the post. B1, also outside the 3 point line, deflects the pass and it goes into the basket. I'm 99% sure the instruction was "3 points" [FED rules]

Does the fact that the original pass was a throw in change the ruling?

Yes.

Adam Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by HokiePaul (Post 909599)
I can't find a case on this, but I remember my association's interpreter giving a similar example when I went through training a couple years ago.

A1, outside the three point line attempts to throw the ball into the post. B1, also outside the 3 point line, deflects the pass and it goes into the basket. I'm 99% sure the instruction was "3 points" [FED rules]

Does the fact that the original pass was a throw in change the ruling?

The only way I would count 3 here is if the original pass was at such an angle as I couldn't tell if it had a chance to go in. If he's throwing a lob pass, then I'd be inclined to count it as three. If he's throwing a bounce pass and the initial trajectory is down (or even horizontal), I'd count it as 2.

On a throw in, I'd go 2 regardless.

Consider this play:

A1, in his backcourt, throws a pass towards A2, who is crossing into the FC. The pass is hits a) A2 or b) B2 (either is running outside the arc) in the head and caroms into the basket.

2 or 3?

BayStateRef Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by HokiePaul (Post 909599)
I can't find a case on this, but I remember my association's interpreter giving a similar example when I went through training a couple years ago.

A1, outside the three point line attempts to throw the ball into the post. B1, also outside the 3 point line, deflects the pass and it goes into the basket. I'm 99% sure the instruction was "3 points" [FED rules]

Does the fact that the original pass was a throw in change the ruling?

The NFHS rule is different than the NCAA rule. Any "thrown ball from the field" beyond the 3-point arc that enters the basket is 3 points under NFHS rule. One need not judge if this is a pass or not. NCAA requires the official to judge whether it is a pass or a try.

And yes (in my reading of the rule)...it does matter if it is a throw-in. The rule says score 3 points on a ball "from the field" beyond the arc. Being out-of-bounds does not place you on the "field."

BayStateRef Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 909602)
Consider this play:

A1, in his backcourt, throws a pass towards A2, who is crossing into the FC. The pass is hits a) A2 or b) B2 (either is running outside the arc) in the head and caroms into the basket.

2 or 3?

3 points (NFHS). Case book 5.2.1 Situation C.

The ball was thrown from outside the arc; it was legally touched outside the arc; it entered the basket. All the elements of this counting as 3 points are met.

Freddy Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BayStateRef (Post 909606)
3 points (NFHS). Case book 5.2.1 Situation C. The ball was thrown from outside the arc; it was legally touched outside the arc; it entered the basket. All the elements of this counting as 3 points are met.

Wrong, it seems, because the OP deals with a throw - in .
How ridiculous would it be if the ball was administered for the throw in between the lane line and the 3 point arc... would a person then assess at as being thrown from inside the arc (from OOB) therefore the defected ball would then be only 2 points? That doesn't make sense because it was not thrown "from the field". Right?

rockyroad Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP (Post 909593)
I think I see where you're going. But it's still a pass by A that goes into A's basket. It's not B scoring at A's basket.

That's just it...it is NOT a pass. That pass officially ended. It's also not a try. So can't be 3 points.

AremRed Fri Nov 01, 2013 01:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 909607)
Wrong, it seems, because the OP deals with a throw - in .
How ridiculous would it be if the ball was administered for the throw in between the lane line and the 3 point arc... would a person then assess at as being thrown from inside the arc (from OOB) therefore the defected ball would then be only 2 points? That doesn't make sense because it was not thrown "from the field". Right?

This is where I would invoke 5.2.1 Situation D.

"Following the free throws for a technical foul, A1 makes a throw-in from out of bounds at the division line opposite the table. The throw-in pass is deflected at A’s free-throw line by: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and it then goes directly through A’s basket.

RULING: Score two points for Team A in both (a) and (b). The throw-in ended when the ball was touched by an inbounds player (legal touch) and the live ball subsequently passed through the basket. The fact it was not a tap or a try for goal does not affect the scoring of two points. (4-41-4; 5-2-1)"

If you will notice in 5.2.1 Situation C, the play also references a "legal touch". 5-2-1 is irrelevant to this situation as it only deals with the qualifications for a legal try or tap. This situation is a deflection.

HawkeyeCubP Fri Nov 01, 2013 01:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad (Post 909609)
That's just it...it is NOT a pass. That pass officially ended. It's also not a try. So can't be 3 points.

Simply being deflected by B does not change the status of this thrown ball, which still meets the definition of a pass. The throw-in, by definition and rule, has ended on the B legal touch, but it's still a pass.


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