Deflected Throw-In Goes In
 

Older threads went back and forth on this, and I'd like to renew the question so as to settle on a firm, rules-based judgment on this situation:

Throw-in thrown toward throw-in team's basket deflects off a defender standing outside the three-point arc and goes through the basket. Result is two points due to the fact that the "throw" did not originate "from the field" as requisite in 5-2-1. True or False?

Previous threads from a while ago wavered back and forth until seemingly settling on the "two points" result.

Casebook does not seem to settle the question since all sitches there deal with passes and throws from a player inbounds.

Any rules-based insights you can share with me?

I have three points. Referencing 5.2.1 Situation D with a little bit of 5.2.1 Situation C thrown in.

NCAA-W AR 104 and 106.A lead me toward saying it...I still don't know. Someone smarter than me provide some amazing insight here.

No way can this be three points.

Care to share your extrapolation of the rules/case plays?

My opinion is ...
 

I read 5-2-1 and 5.2.1 Sit C & D. This particular situation isn't specifically addressed as far as I see. So, I come down on the side of a 2 point basket because of the "thrown ball from the field" verbiage in the rule.

Since you can't score a goal on a throw-in pass, then I would have a deflection be worth only two points, not three, based on the NCAA rules.

I would rule the same way in FED.

And to the OP -- if it wasn't resolved then, and there haven't been any (relevant) changes, what makes you think it would be resolved now?

The throw-in ended when the ball was legally touched by the defender. There was never a throw (shot attempt) made by an offensive player. So the rules cited do not really apply. This would be two points.

All is right with my world when I agree with Bob. :):)

Yep. Live ball through the goal, does not meet the criteria for 3 points.

With that same scenario, what if time expires while the ball is in flight..do you count the basket or wave off the basket?

Score two points in the OP.

jdd - no basket.

The period doesn't end until a TRY IN FLIGHT ends. This wasn't, so it does. Do not count the basket.

(Same as if the ball was thrown toward the opponent's basket.)

I agree with the 2-points rulings here, but I'd want to be careful not to mistakenly state that it's 2 because "you can score a 3-pt. basket from a throw-in," since the throw-in technically ended on the defensive deflection - even though that's essentially how we're logically getting there.

Sorry. Wait, No I'm Not
 

:confused:

In the previous threads from a while ago many posters confused this situation with those in the casebook which do not deal with a throw in. And I see at least one responder to this thread made the same error. I asked the question again for the sake of clarity and confirmation and I thank you for your responses. :)

But because I may have discomforted some with my request I will be sure to seek permission before asking anything like this again. :D

OK then...how about we say that you can't score a 3 at your opponents basket?

Sure. But the OP was toward and into A's basket.

It was a throw-in. Ended when touched by defender. Can't score 3 in opponents basket.

"If the original release had no chance at being worth three points, then the deflection can't be worth three points."

(edit: NCAA interp only. FED might be different.)

I think I see where you're going. But it's still a pass by A that goes into A's basket. It's not B scoring at A's basket.

I like it.

I can't find a case on this, but I remember my association's interpreter giving a similar example when I went through training a couple years ago.

A1, outside the three point line attempts to throw the ball into the post. B1, also outside the 3 point line, deflects the pass and it goes into the basket. I'm 99% sure the instruction was "3 points" [FED rules]

Does the fact that the original pass was a throw in change the ruling?

Yes.

The only way I would count 3 here is if the original pass was at such an angle as I couldn't tell if it had a chance to go in. If he's throwing a lob pass, then I'd be inclined to count it as three. If he's throwing a bounce pass and the initial trajectory is down (or even horizontal), I'd count it as 2.

On a throw in, I'd go 2 regardless.

Consider this play:

A1, in his backcourt, throws a pass towards A2, who is crossing into the FC. The pass is hits a) A2 or b) B2 (either is running outside the arc) in the head and caroms into the basket.

2 or 3?

The NFHS rule is different than the NCAA rule. Any "thrown ball from the field" beyond the 3-point arc that enters the basket is 3 points under NFHS rule. One need not judge if this is a pass or not. NCAA requires the official to judge whether it is a pass or a try.

And yes (in my reading of the rule)...it does matter if it is a throw-in. The rule says score 3 points on a ball "from the field" beyond the arc. Being out-of-bounds does not place you on the "field."

3 points (NFHS). Case book 5.2.1 Situation C.

The ball was thrown from outside the arc; it was legally touched outside the arc; it entered the basket. All the elements of this counting as 3 points are met.

Wrong, it seems, because the OP deals with a throw - in .
How ridiculous would it be if the ball was administered for the throw in between the lane line and the 3 point arc... would a person then assess at as being thrown from inside the arc (from OOB) therefore the defected ball would then be only 2 points? That doesn't make sense because it was not thrown "from the field". Right?

That's just it...it is NOT a pass. That pass officially ended. It's also not a try. So can't be 3 points.

This is where I would invoke 5.2.1 Situation D.

"Following the free throws for a technical foul, A1 makes a throw-in from out of bounds at the division line opposite the table. The throw-in pass is deflected at A’s free-throw line by: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and it then goes directly through A’s basket.

RULING: Score two points for Team A in both (a) and (b). The throw-in ended when the ball was touched by an inbounds player (legal touch) and the live ball subsequently passed through the basket. The fact it was not a tap or a try for goal does not affect the scoring of two points. (4-41-4; 5-2-1)"

If you will notice in 5.2.1 Situation C, the play also references a "legal touch". 5-2-1 is irrelevant to this situation as it only deals with the qualifications for a legal try or tap. This situation is a deflection.

Simply being deflected by B does not change the status of this thrown ball, which still meets the definition of a pass. The throw-in, by definition and rule, has ended on the B legal touch, but it's still a pass.

I answered a second question. Correctly.

For the OP, I previously answered that too. 2 points.

That is not the correct interpretation of the rule.

The more specific casebook play disagrees:

4.41.4 SITUATION B: A1’s three-point try is short and below ring level when it hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through the basket. RULING: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1)

Since we're told we don't need to judge if it is a try or not, this means that if at any point in the flight of the ball it no longer has a chance of going in without being deflected, it can no longer be a 3.

5.2.1C refers to a ball thrown to the basket that is touched such that it "continues in flight". The distinction is deflection in a new direction vs. a mere touch.

Good point. I know when the rule was changed, the intent was to take away the judgment of whether it was a pass or a try when an "alley oop" from outside the arc went into the basket.

The case play you cite speaks of a try being "short and below the rim." I see this as a long heave (perhaps near the end of a quarter) that hits another player, but bounces into the basket.

I see your point that a hard pass that hits another player's head behind the arc and goes into the basket should be seen in the same light. But I don't agree that it "was obviously short and below the ring" at the time it hit the player. Most shots begin "obviously short and below the ring" until such time as they attain the height and distance to reach the goal.

Given the continued convoluted way the NFHS rules and case books are written and edited, I shouldn't be surprised by this. Clarity is hardly a priority for the rules writers and editors.

I am jumping into the fray some what late, but there is another way to approach theOP whether it is NFHS or NCAA Men's/Women's.

Team A has the ball for a throw-in on the sideline in its front court. A1's throw-in is touched by B1 while the ball is in the cylinder above Team A's basket. What do we have?

MTD, Sr.

Certainly if the trajectory is such that it was going in the general vicinity of the rim, you may be left with calling it a 3 but obviously short is judging the trajectory of the ball to be not toward the basket or not strong enough that it will rise that high. 99% of all thrown balls in a basketball game are nowhere near a direction or height which might take them into the basket...those were not meant to be 3's.

The thrown ball rule was written WITHOUT considering the complication of a deflection. It was only written to cover a ball that was released in such a way that it might or might not be a try as released but goes in is to be called a 3. It was never intend to be applied to a ball that was thrown no where near a path that would go in but was batted in by someone else.

Too many people try to convolute the thrown ball case with the the case of a 3-point try that is tipped by a defender. The latter case was also written to cover a basic play, not one complicated by an unrelated issue. It is intending to describe a play where a defender, just inside the 3-point line tips the ball just as it comes out of the shooter's hands but it still goes in...that a defender can't cause a 3 to become a 2 just by touching the ball. This was written before the thrown-ball rule and was made to consider that what-if. It was never meant to apply to a case where a clear pass is batted into the basket.

Those two cases are simply apples and oranges. They were never meant to be combined to come up with a nonsensical ruling where a skip pass from one elbow to the other, in a line that would not come within 20 feet of the basket and is batted by a defender into the basket would be ruled a 3.

Players that can jump.

Basket interference.

I don't see what this play has to do with this thread. Maybe I'm just dense.

You might as well say "the deflected ball is above the height of the rim and ooks like it might enter the basket when A1 or B1 swats it away. What do you have?" (Or B1 commits a foul. OR B1 swings the elbows. ...)

Answer: Another, completely separate, interesting play.

Nice Citation Camron Rust ...
 

Answer: True.

5-2: A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who
is located behind the team's own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball
that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal
from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown.
See 4-5-4.

This question showed up on the MHSAA postseason exam:

A5 is making a throw-in from the frontcourt sideline. She throws the ball toward A2, who is standing in the lane. However, B3 is strongly contesting the throw-in. B3 is outside the three-point arc when she deflects the throw-in pass. After the deflection by B3, the ball enters Team A’s basket. The officials will properly rule that:

a. Team A has violated the throw-in provisions, and award Team B a throw-in.
b. Team A has scored three points.
c. Team A has scored two points.
d. Team A gets another throw-in, but no points are scored.

Origionally I had thought answer was B, but now thanks to this post I'm now going with C.

Thanks!