10 second count on small court?

[OYC2013]

What are the general rules when officiating a youth game on a very small court when the backcourt line is actually a point before the marked midcourt line as far as 10 second rule and backcourt violation? Do you use the court's true midline as your 10 second count point and then once the player dribbling the ball crosses the mid court line, the backcourt line becomes that first line that was crossed, which effectively allows for a bigger front court?
A little hard to explain, but anyone who has reffed on a small youth-sized court should know what I mean.

[Raymond]

Just don't have a count.

If using that type of court they shouldn't be allowed to press anyway, IMO.

[JRutledge]

There is no rule. The only rule that might take place is a local or league rule. Otherwise not our call to do anything different just because of the size fo the court.

Peace

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by OYC2013

What are the general rules when officiating a youth game on a very small court when the backcourt line is actually a point before the marked midcourt line as far as 10 second rule and backcourt violation? Do you use the court's true midline as your 10 second count point and then once the player dribbling the ball crosses the mid court line, the backcourt line becomes that first line that was crossed, which effectively allows for a bigger front court?
A little hard to explain, but anyone who has reffed on a small youth-sized court should know what I mean.

I think you mean a court as described in 1-3-2.

Generally you have to cross the line closest to your basket in < 10 seconds, but can then use the line closest to the opponent's basket as your "front court."

The best bet, though, is to ask that league (or experienced referees in that league) how they want it called.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

There is no rule.

1-3-2: A division line 2 inches wide, shall divide the court into two equal parts. If the court is less than 74 feet long, it should be divided by two lines, each parallel to and 40 feet from the farther end line.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

You have to cross the line closest to your basket in < 10 seconds, but can then use the line closest to the opponent's basket as your "front court."

I've actually officiated high school varsity boys games on such a court. The gymnasium was so small ... How small was it? The gymnasium was so small that players on the bench had their shoes over, not on, over, the side boundary line if their shoe size was over size eight.

[JetMetFan]

That’s why Game Management is around. When in doubt, ask. Different places have different rules. If it’s the home gym of one of the teams, ask the coach.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I've actually officiated high school varsity boys games on such a court. The gymnasium was so small ... How small was it? The gymnasium was so small that players on the bench had their shoes over, not on, over, the side boundary line if their shoe size was over size eight.

Billy, I’ve got that beat. The old Rice High School gym in Manhattan was so small…the top of three-point lines nearly intersected with the division line. There also was no way to take a three from the corners or about 15 feet out of the corners. And yes, they played games there – Freshman and JV – until the place closed. They also played varsity games but stopped years before I became an official in the early 90s.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

1-3-2: A division line 2 inches wide, shall divide the court into two equal parts. If the court is less than 74 feet long, it should be divided by two lines, each parallel to and 40 feet from the farther end line.

OK, what is your point? Are there any rules that say what to do if it is not to theis configurations? Nope.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I've actually officiated high school varsity boys games on such a court. The gymnasium was so small ... How small was it? The gymnasium was so small that players on the bench had their shoes over, not on, over, the side boundary line if their shoe size was over size eight.

I not only officiated on shorter courts, I have played on shorter courts and we did not have drastically different rules for those courts. And as an official the only time we had differnet rules were for the throw-in spots and was related to not enough room to complete the throw-ins.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Are there any rules that say what to do if it is not to this configurations? Nope.

You're a lot more than half right, and I'm a lot more than half wrong. We have half a rule, on how to line such a court, but we don't have a rule that explains how to use these parallel lines for the ten second rule, and the backcourt rule. I never realized, until today that the NFHS doesn't explain how to use these two lines. Did it ever?

I always thought that bob jenkins' post answer was a real rule. Guess not. But I still like his explanation, and, as usual, always listen to bob.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

You have to cross the line closest to your basket in < 10 seconds, but can then use the line closest to the opponent's basket as your "front court.".

Seriously, was this ever a NFHS rule of some type? Ever? How about some help here Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. It's only October. It can't be that cold up in your attic "library".

[OYC2013]

Thanks for all of the quick replies, and yes , Bob, something along those lines. I should have mentioned it's a youth league that does employ 10 second rule and allows pressing in backcourt (with the older grades). So, there definitely are rules. Was just curious which line you would use to end 10 second count and at what point would the line that is closest to opponent's basket become the line to use for backcourt violation.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

The old Rice High School gym in Manhattan was so small…the top of three-point lines nearly intersected with the division line. There also was no way to take a three from the corners or about 15 feet out of the corners.

We've got a "bowling alley" court in our Catholic Middle School League. One team bench on each endline. Sideline boundaries are literally touching the side walls of the gymnasium. It has the broken lines three feet inside the sideline boundaries. Similar three point line to that described above. It does have a "normal" division line.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

You're a lot more than half right, and I'm a lot more than half wrong. We have half a rule, on how to line such a court, but we don't have a rule that explains how to use these parallel lines for the ten second rule, and the backcourt rule. I never realized, until today that the NFHS doesn't explain how to use these two lines. Did it ever?

I always thought that bob jenkins' post answer was a real rule. Guess not. But I still like his explanation, and, as usual, always listen to bob.

The reason for the alternative lines on a very short court is twofold:.

1. It is to give a team a reasonable sized frontcourt without being at risk of stepping into the backcourt while just above the top of the key.

2. The division line, in general, in the context of the 10 second rule, limits the amount of space the offense is allowed to make use of. It is not about having a team advance the ball a certain distance by 10 seconds. The offense is, after 10 seconds, limited to playing the ball in an area smaller than the full court.

As such, the only logical conclusion is that the division line for a given team, for both purposes, is the one farther from their basket. Each team has their own backcourt and 10 second line...and it is the same line.

[Thumper68]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I think you mean a court as described in 1-3-2.

Generally you have to cross the line closest to your basket in < 10 seconds, but can then use the line closest to the opponent's basket as your "front court."

The best bet, though, is to ask that league (or experienced referees in that league) how they want it called.

I worked a small gym like this during my first two years. We used the method described by Bob. Game management always explained it, even if we had worked there before. That gym has since closed.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

You're a lot more than half right, and I'm a lot more than half wrong. We have half a rule, on how to line such a court, but we don't have a rule that explains how to use these parallel lines for the ten second rule, and the backcourt rule. I never realized, until today that the NFHS doesn't explain how to use these two lines. Did it ever?

I always thought that bob jenkins' post answer was a real rule. Guess not. But I still like his explanation, and, as usual, always listen to bob.

It sounds to me like you are talking about another issue then just a smaller court. It seems to me like you are talking about more the size of the FC area. If that is the case I have seen courts that provide an extra line that once the division line is crossed, the secondary line is to allow the offense room to move in the FC. I have worked on a court that had that configuration but it was more like a ground rule so the game could be played. But I have been on many courts where the length was never an issue in this area so we never needed a secondary line.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It seems to me like you are talking about more the size of the FC area. If that is the case I have seen courts that provide an extra line that once the division line is crossed, the secondary line is to allow the offense room to move in the FC.

Bingo. Give JRutledge a prize from the top shelf.

It was a long time ago. Maybe I was incorrect in my earlier post. There were three lines, two "secondary" lines, and a "real" division line, with a jump ball circle (one of three jump ball circles back in the olden days). Maybe the offensive team had to get it over the "real" division line in ten seconds, and after that could legally "back-up" to the "secondary" line "behind" the "real" division line, without incurring a backcourt violation.