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-   -   Offensive Foul after Shooting Foul? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/96248-offensive-foul-after-shooting-foul.html)

potato Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:50am

Offensive Foul after Shooting Foul?
 
If A goes for a shot and B blocks & commits a foul, while still airborne, A pushes B away and makes the shot, would A be called for a foul or game stops when the defense commits a foul and a free throw awarded, or would A be awarded a free throw and A takes a foul and ball starts as if A commited a foul, but what if A missed the freethrow?

Usually double foul happens when a defensive foul is followed by another defensive foul, and rarely followed by an offensive foul, but it can happen if B fouled hard and A shoves B away to make a shot.

bob jenkins Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:12am

Quote:

Originally Posted by potato (Post 907175)
Usually double foul happens when a defensive foul is followed by another defensive foul,

Never is that the definition of or an example of a double foul.

In your play, it is a double foul, and both are penalized.

Freddy Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:16am

Huh?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by potato (Post 907175)
If A goes for a shot and B blocks & commits a foul, while still airborne, A pushes B away and makes the shot, would A be called for a foul or game stops when the defense commits a foul and a free throw awarded, or would A be awarded a free throw and A takes a foul and ball starts as if A commited a foul, but what if A missed the freethrow?

Always appreciate the challenge of considering a situation, but your blended statements and random punctuation and lack thereof render your situation difficult to understand. Could you please rephrase the situation more clearly and give me another chance to try to figure it out?

Quote:

Originally Posted by potato (Post 907175)
Usually double foul happens when a defensive foul is followed by another defensive foul,

This isn't compatible with the definition of a "double foul"...

Quote:

Originally Posted by potato (Post 907175)
...and rarely followed by an offensive foul, but it can happen if B fouled hard and A shoves B away to make a shot.

...though this might. One important consideration that might be helpful is that the defensive foul does not cause the ball to be come dead, but the player control foul does--immediately. That will have an impact on whether to count the score or not.

bob jenkins Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:27am

Also (and I'm not sure if this will help potato), there are a couple of plays in the case book that deal with this -- and you get slightly different rulings depending on the specifics.

I don't have the books here to cite, though.

Adam Thu Oct 10, 2013 12:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 907177)
Always appreciate the challenge of considering a situation, but your blended statements and random punctuation and lack thereof render your situation difficult to understand. Could you please rephrase the situation more clearly and give me another chance to try to figure it out?


This isn't compatible with the definition of a "double foul"...


...though this might. One important consideration that might be helpful is that the defensive foul does not cause the ball to be come dead, but the player control foul does--immediately. That will have an impact on whether to count the score or not.

If this is counted as a double foul, then it does not fit the definition of a player control foul.

Freddy Thu Oct 10, 2013 06:16pm

How So?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 907189)
If this is counted as a double foul, then it does not fit the definition of a player control foul.

B2 fouls airborne shooter A1 and A1 having released the shot, at approximately the same time, fouls B3 before landing. Does that not fit the definition of a double foul? Or is it your contention that these two fouls are unlikely to happen at aproximately the same time?
Help me understand your point.

Adam Thu Oct 10, 2013 07:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 907218)
B2 fouls airborne shooter A1 and A1 having released the shot, at approximately the same time, fouls B3 before landing. Does that not fit the definition of a double foul? Or is it your contention that these two fouls are unlikely to happen at aproximately the same time?
Help me understand your point.

Double fouls exclude PC fouls. If it's a double, then it's not a PC. That's why the case play, where a double foul is called on a shot, says to count the basket and give the ball to the defensive team for an end line throw in.

Freddy Thu Oct 10, 2013 07:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 907222)
Double fouls exclude PC fouls. If it's a double, then it's not a PC. That's why the case play, where a double foul is called on a shot, says to count the basket and give the ball to the defensive team for an end line throw in.

Thanx. That gives me something to check out tonight. Just incidentally, isn't a "blarge" an example of a double foul, one of which is a PC foul?

AremRed Thu Oct 10, 2013 07:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 907223)
Thanx. That gives me something to check out tonight. Just incidentally, isn't a "blarge" an example of a double foul, one of which is a PC foul?

No, a blarge is one foul that is called differently by two different officials.

Adam Thu Oct 10, 2013 07:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 907223)
Thanx. That gives me something to check out tonight. Just incidentally, isn't a "blarge" an example of a double foul, one of which is a PC foul?

Nope, that's why you'd count the score on a blarge, too.

Freddy Thu Oct 10, 2013 08:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 907224)
No, a blarge is one foul that is called differently by two different officials.

I see your point, but note that 4.19.8C (re. the "blarge") does say, "...itis not a player-control foul because the two fouls result in a double personal foul."
That seems to be different than what you are saying, but I'm still seeing the reasoning behind your statement.

Freddy Thu Oct 10, 2013 08:15pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 907222)
Double fouls exclude PC fouls. If it's a double, then it's not a PC. That's why the case play, where a double foul is called on a shot, says to count the basket and give the ball to the defensive team for an end line throw in.

Trying to find where either book says a double foul excludes PC fouls. Is there a reference I'm not seeing, or is that a reasonable inference you've drawn?
Not alleging you to be wrong, just trying to find a reference that justifies your point.
I do see that 2.19.8C says, "Even though airborne shooter A1 committed a charging foul, it is not a player control foul because the two fouls result in a double personal foul." Is that what you were referring to, or is there another I should consider?

dsavitzky Thu Oct 10, 2013 09:15pm

I guess it depends on how you define "approximately at the same time," but I see this clearly as a false double foul, for which each foul carries its own penalty.

4.19.9 Situation A

The blocking foul doesn't cause the ball to become dead, but the foul by the offense (a player-control foul) wipes off the shot.

A1 gets two free throws on an empty lane. If the second free throw is made, team B gets a throw-in on the endline. If it's missed, team B gets a designated-spot throw-in nearest the spot of the player-control foul.

bob jenkins Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 907228)
Trying to find where either book says a double foul excludes PC fouls. Is there a reference I'm not seeing,

Hint: Is a PC foul a common foul? Can a common foul be part of a double foul?

The definitions are your friend

bob jenkins Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsavitzky (Post 907232)
I guess it depends on how you define "approximately at the same time," but I see this clearly as a false double foul, for which each foul carries its own penalty.

4.19.9 Situation A.

See also 4.19.8C

I seem to recal another case, but maybe I'm getting it confused with the try-foul-GT (or BI) situation.

johnny d Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 907218)
B2 fouls airborne shooter A1 and A1 having released the shot, at approximately the same time, fouls B3 before landing. Does that not fit the definition of a double foul? Or is it your contention that these two fouls are unlikely to happen at aproximately the same time?
Help me understand your point.

This is not ever a double foul. In order to be a double foul, the opponents have to commit fouls against each other. This is not true in your scenario. This would always be a false double foul or simultaneous foul depending upon the timing of the two fouls.

Freddy Fri Oct 11, 2013 08:06am

You're Correct
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by johnny d (Post 907239)
This is not ever a double foul. In order to be a double foul, the opponents have to commit fouls against each other. This is not true in your scenario. This would always be a false double foul or simultaneous foul depending upon the timing of the two fouls.

Of course.
Duh.
Doi.
That's what I get when I try to think through these things while passing the time watching daughter's volleyball game. :o

Sharpshooternes Fri Oct 11, 2013 08:54am

So in the blarge situation we are discussiong, when do you consider it a double foul and when do you consider it a false double foul? Whether the ball is released on the try or not? I am looking at 4.19.8c and 4.19.9a.

Adam Fri Oct 11, 2013 09:10am

Double foul on a blarge. Never a false double.

Sharpshooternes Fri Oct 11, 2013 09:42am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 907251)
Double foul on a blarge. Never a false double.

So what is the difference between the two case plays I posted above?

just another ref Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:46am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes (Post 907252)
So what is the difference between the two case plays I posted above?

4.19.9a is two separate contacts. A1 is fouled by B1 on the way up, and A1 fouls B2 on the way down.

4.19.8c is a single contact which draws opposite calls from two different officials.

Sharpshooternes Fri Oct 11, 2013 05:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 907260)
4.19.9a is two separate contacts. A1 is fouled by B1 on the way up, and A1 fouls B2 on the way down.

4.19.8c is a single contact which draws opposite calls from two different officials.

So in 4.19.8c it is strictly that 2 officials called two different things. SO in theory it could be exactly the same play but in one case, one referee calls both fouls (the false double foul). Is that right?

just another ref Fri Oct 11, 2013 05:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes (Post 907286)
So in 4.19.8c it is strictly that 2 officials called two different things. SO in theory it could be exactly the same play but in one case, one referee calls both fouls (the false double foul). Is that right?


I see no reason why any double foul could not be called by two different officials. The unique thing about 4.19.8c is conflicting block/charge calls on the same play, which by definition is impossible. Others say both fouls must be reported when the officials give the conflicting preliminary signal, but I see nothing in the case play which demands this. What do you think?



Hey, he asked.:D

Adam Fri Oct 11, 2013 05:26pm

I'm not sure what the situations are, to be honest. But....

There would need to be more of a difference. Any time you have a double foul, neither can be a PC due to definitions. It is possible to have a double foul called by one official (not likely, but possible) on a shooter.

Adam Fri Oct 11, 2013 05:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 907288)
Hey, he asked.:D

I'll allow it. ;)

If you don't mind a Don Quixote pic.

Adam Fri Oct 11, 2013 05:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 907291)
That, is not a double foul. That is a false double foul since B2 committed the first foul and B3 was the one fouled by A1.

In this case, the foul by A1 is still a PC foul so the basket can be scored. But, since A1 was fouled in the act of shooting, A1 gets 2 FTs.

Now, the big question is whether you'll have A1 shoot the FTs with no one one the lane and award the ball to someone after the shot or if you'll shoot the FTs normally.

Did you mean "cannot be scored?"

As for your last question, it would depend on which foul happened first. In the OP, I'd clear the lane and give the ball to the defense after the basket.

Camron Rust Fri Oct 11, 2013 07:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 907293)
Did you mean "cannot be scored?"

As for your last question, it would depend on which foul happened first. In the OP, I'd clear the lane and give the ball to the defense after the basket.

I actually deleted that post right after I posted it when I read further down the thread and realized that my points had already been covered. :)

And, yes, I meant can NOT be scored.

I don't think it would depend on which happened first. If there is a PC foul, the ball is dead. Subsequent contact wouldn't even be a foul unless it was intentional or flagrant (and I don't think that is the situation under discussion). So, the only way you can get two fouls where one of them is a PC foul is if the PC foul happens last.

bob jenkins Fri Oct 11, 2013 08:11pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes (Post 907286)
So in 4.19.8c it is strictly that 2 officials called two different things. SO in theory it could be exactly the same play but in one case, one referee calls both fouls (the false double foul). Is that right?

That's not correct. In 4.19.8C the fouls are by two players AGAINST EACH OTHER. That's a double foul. So the "charge" is NOT a PC foul, the try counts and you resume at the POI (B's ball on the endlien if the try is good, the arrow if the try is not good). This is really no different than A1 tries, B2 and A2 foul each other getting into position for the rebound.

In 4.19.9A , The fouls are not by players against each other. One B player fouls A1, and A1 in turn fouls a DIFFERENT B player. That makes it a false double foul. Here the "charge" is a PC foul and BOTH fouls are penalized.

Adam Fri Oct 11, 2013 09:55pm

One other possibility would be a simultaneous foul. No books handy, but I have to assume that would also exclude a PC.

bob jenkins Sat Oct 12, 2013 07:41am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 907307)
One other possibility would be a simultaneous foul. No books handy, but I have to assume that would also exclude a PC.

"A common foul ... nor part of a double, simultaneous or multiple foul."


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