What would you do?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

They may know how to operate an IPhone better than I can ... but many of them have managed to make the A-team, and after 3 weeks of practice still don't know they can't dribble with both hands, or they can't stop a dribble and then dribble again.

That might be the case is some places, but not in the places that I am familiar (and I am not talking about Chicago area either). Basketball is life here. Kids learn to dribble as toddlers. Basketball is king and kids grow up doing very basic things. I just do not see why it would be hard to understand if you call a violation?

Peace

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

They may know how to operate an IPhone better than I can ... but many of them have managed to make the A-team, and after 3 weeks of practice still don't know they can't dribble with both hands, or they can't stop a dribble and then dribble again.

Wow, 7th grade basketball must be really bad where you are at.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by johnny d

Wow, 7th grade basketball must be really bad where you are at.

Absolutely.

I have worked travel ball with players this young and they do amazing things. There is always a kid that could out dribble many high school players and the ball is bigger then their head.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

They may know how to operate an IPhone better than I can ... but many of them have managed to make the A-team, and after 3 weeks of practice still don't know they can't dribble with both hands, or they can't stop a dribble and then dribble again.

Wow, most of the 7th grade games around here involve a little more talent and experience than that.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

7th grade is 7th grade ... Many places refer to it as Jr. High, many call it middle school.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The school that I attended was called Edison Junior High School when I started 7th grade ... to know it is the same thing.

It's not a big deal but I want to clear something up.

Adam is right, seventh grade is seventh grade. But, depending on the set up of the grade system in the school, and the makeup of the teams, some seventh graders can be much better prepared for organized basketball than other seventh graders.

It looks like JRutledge attended a junior school with grades similar to what I attended back in the 1960's, and used to teach at, and coach at, up until about twenty years ago. Junior high was grade seven, eight and nine.

Back then it was very difficult for a seventh grader to make a junior high team with eighth, and ninth, graders trying out. If there was a seventh grader on my junior high school team, and I don't recall more than one, or two, he was probably a very talented seventh grader.

Now, here in Connecticut, all ninth graders are in high school settings, no more junior high schools, instead we have middle schools of sixth, seventh, and eighth graders.

The seventh graders that I was referring to may, or may not, be anything like the seventh graders in the original post. The kids that I was talking about attend Catholic middle schools. These schools have a very competitive "varsity" teams that consist of mostly eighth graders, and talented seventh graders. The less talented seventh graders play on the "junior varsity" team, playing in a league that combines both competition, and instruction. If you're a seventh grader on a "junior varsity" team, then you probably are not very good, because, if you were, you would probably be on the "varsity" team.

These are the seventh graders that I was talking about, some of them playing organized, competitive, basketball for the first time, and often being confused about some of the simplest rules, especially with the pressure of fans, coaches, officials, a scoreboard, etc., especially in the first weeks of the season.

[Adam]

Semantics. And "varsity" is still a silly term for middle school basketball of any level.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

Semantics. And "varsity" is still a silly term for middle school basketball of any level.

We've been down this road before. Please, let's not go down that road again, at least for today. Don't make me pull out my Funk & Wagnalls.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

It looks like JRutledge attended a junior school with grades similar to what I attended back in the 1960's, and used to teach at, and coach at, up until about twenty years ago. Junior high was grade seven, eight and nine.

OK, but this is not about what I attended over 20 years ago. The current school system calls the school that has 7th graders a Junior High.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Back then it was very difficult for a seventh grader to make a junior high team with eighth, and ninth, graders trying out. If there was a seventh grader on my junior high school team, and I don't recall more than one, or two, he was probably a very talented seventh grader.

I cannot speak for you. But most 7th graders are not competing against 9th graders in my experience. When I was that age there was a 7th grade team and an 8th grade team. Ninth graders were Freshman and had their own team at the separate high school building.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Now, here in Connecticut, all ninth graders are in high school settings, no more junior high schools, instead we have middle schools of sixth, seventh, and eighth graders.

I attended Richardson Junior High as a 9th grader for a semester in the Dallas, Texas area and it was next door to Richardson Senior High which held 10th-12th graders. Not sure if that is still the case, but the 9th graders player on our own age group. We did not compete with lower levels in any sport as I remember it.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

These are the seventh graders that I was talking about, some of them playing organized, competitive, basketball for the first time, and often being confused about some of the simplest rules, especially in the first weeks of the season.

I am starting to understand why we have so many D1 and pro players that come from this state if that is the case. When I started officiating in 1996, 5th and 6th grade basketball was common for school programs. And that does not include the travel or rec. leagues kids might have played in before.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I have worked travel ball with players this young and they do amazing things.

I have no idea what travel basketball is like in your area, but around these parts, travel basketball is a really big deal, with dozens, and dozens, of kids from the entire town trying out for about a dozen spots. The kids that make the team end up being the crème-de-la-crème, and are very, very talented.

Seventh graders on a Catholic middle school "junior varsity" team, are those that did not make the "varsity" team, and are certainly not the crème-de-la-crème, and again, these are the deer in the headlights kids. This is why I had a slight problem with Adam's, "7th grade is 7th grade". They all aren't the same. If the seventh graders on our town travel team were to play the local Catholic middle school "junior varsity" team of seventh graders (remember the best seventh graders moved up to the "varsity"), the score would end up being about 112 to 6 (Believe me, I know, I've worked scrimmages). It may not be apples to oranges, but it's Delicious apples to Macintosh apples.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by APG

Not that I would get on anyone either way, but the players would get just as much out of you calling a violation or doing it your way.

Can't argue with that, especially with a casebook play to back you up. Once again, its a matter of "When in Rome ...".

Does this, "When in Rome ...", stuff work in other sports like it seems to work in basketball?

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Does this, "When in Rome ...", stuff work in other sports like it seems to work in basketball?

Yes, except in Rome.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I have no idea what travel basketball is like in your area, but around these parts, travel basketball is a really big deal, with dozens, and dozens, of kids from the entire town trying out for about a dozen spots. The kids that make the team end up being the crème-de-la-crème, and are very, very talented.

Seventh graders on a Catholic middle school "junior varsity" team, are those that did not make the "varsity" team, and are certainly not the crème-de-la-crème, and again, these are the deer in the headlights kids. This is why I had a slight problem with Adam's, "7th grade is 7th grade". They all aren't the same. If the seventh graders on our town travel team were to play the local Catholic middle school "junior varsity" team of seventh graders (remember the best seventh graders moved up to the "varsity"), the score would end up being about 112 to 6 (Believe me, I know, I've worked scrimmages). It may not be apples to oranges, but it's Delicious apples to Macintosh apples.

Yep, some 7th graders are better than others. I never said otherwise. I only said whether you call their school a junior high or a middle school is completely irrelevant. What makes a difference is how much basketball they've played up to that point.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I have no idea what travel basketball is like in your area, but around these parts, travel basketball is a really big deal, with dozens, and dozens, of kids from the entire town trying out for about a dozen spots. The kids that make the team end up being the crème-de-la-crème, and are very, very talented.

Everyone has a travel team. And at that age just about anyone that wants to play can find a team somewhere.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Seventh graders on a Catholic middle school "junior varsity" team, are those that did not make the "varsity" team, and are certainly not the crème-de-la-crème, and again, these are the deer in the headlights kids. This is why I had a slight problem with Adam's, "7th grade is 7th grade". They all aren't the same. If the seventh graders on our town travel team were to play the local Catholic middle school "junior varsity" team of seventh graders (remember the best seventh graders moved up to the "varsity"), the score would end up being about 112 to 6 (Believe me, I know, I've worked scrimmages). It may not be apples to oranges, but it's Delicious apples to Macintosh apples.

Billy like anything in life, there are always different levels. Not all high school players are at the same level of competence and I do not think many people decide to call the game that drastically different.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

What makes a difference is how much basketball they've played up to that point.

Bingo. Give the man a cigar. Keep in mind that sometimes the degree of experience is not completely controlled by the individual, but rather, the "system" that the individual participates in. Unlike the old adage, sometimes opportunity is persistent, and knocks several times, and sometimes it doesn't knock at all, it just passes right by your house.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Everyone has a travel team. And at that age just about anyone that wants to play can find a team somewhere.

Not true here in my hometown of 40,000 people. We have one travel team for each grade, six, seven, and eight. If a player doesn't make that team, then he's relegated to playing recreation basketball, where the competition is not as good as the travel program, as is the strength of schedule, the amount of practice time, and the quality of coaching.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Not all high school players are at the same level of competence and I do not think many people decide to call the game that drastically different.

You are absolutely correct. Most of us don't.

But once you venture down to officiate games between pre-teen gym rats, then you can, or can't, adjust to the talent, and experience, of that team, league, or individual, as well as the expectations of that league. I've been working this Catholic middle school "junior varsity" league for over twenty-five years, and I know exactly what's expected of me. If I call a do-over in the original post, especially if it's early in the season, early in the game, and with a confused player, I'm 100% positive that my assigner, all my partners, the league president, both coaches, the principal, and all the fans wouldn't blink an eye. In fact, I'm certain that my assigner, and the league president, are pleased with the job that I do, as I am usually selected to officiate league playoffs, and have worked state, and New England, tournaments at this level.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

There are always different levels.

Agree. And some of us adjust, or are allowed, or even encouraged, to adjust, and some of us don't adjust, or are not allowed to adjust, or are discouraged from adjusting. It all depends on the individual official, as well as the expectations of the assigner, and the league.