Ball comes in contact with both hands while dribbling

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

You're going to give it back to A?

Until I learn how to read a player's mind, yes I am.

[Rob1968]

Quote: "Remember, you can fumble-dribble-fumble so both plays are legal. In play A, A1 would not be able to dribble again."
I've always understood the "fumble - dribble - fumble" concept to be:
1st fumble - in attempting to catch/control the ball upon receiving it, as in receiving a pass -
2nd fumble - in attempting to end the dribble -
and not after having ended the dribble, successfully, and then fumbling the ball. My understanding of that fumble, and then being 1st to touch the ball, is that would be considered a 2nd, dbl dribble, violation. Indeed, the "Simplified and Illustrated Manual" seems to support that understanding, in the illustration of 4-15-4.
If, after successfully ending a dribble by controlling the ball, a player is allowed to fumble the ball to the floor and recover it, how many times is that allowable?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

Quote: "Remember, you can fumble-dribble-fumble so both plays are legal. In play A, A1 would not be able to dribble again."
I've always understood the "fumble - dribble - fumble" concept to be:
1st fumble - in attempting to catch/control the ball upon receiving it, as in receiving a pass -
2nd fumble - in attempting to end the dribble -
and not after having ended the dribble, successfully, and then fumbling the ball. My understanding of that fumble, and then being 1st to touch the ball, is that would be considered a 2nd, dbl dribble, violation. Indeed, the "Simplified and Illustrated Manual" seems to support that understanding, in the illustration of 4-15-4.
If, after successfully ending a dribble by controlling the ball, a player is allowed to fumble the ball to the floor and recover it, how many times is that allowable?

Theoretically, it's infinite. Let me ask, what violation would you call?

[Rob1968]

Originally Posted by Adam

Theoretically, it's infinite. Let me ask, what violation would you call?

If, having ended a dribble by controlling the ball, the ball is fumbled to the floor, and the ball handler is first to touch it, I understand it to be a dbl dribble violation.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

If, having ended a dribble by controlling the ball, the ball is fumbled to the floor, and the ball handler is first to touch it, I understand it to be a dbl dribble violation.

A dribble cannot be started by a fumble. This actually strengthens the above argument. The official must judge what the player is doing when the ball is released.

Dribble Pass Fumble Try

[Rob1968]

Originally Posted by just another ref

A dribble cannot be started by a fumble. This actually strengthens the above argument. The official must judge what the player is doing when the ball is released.

Dribble Pass Fumble Try

Case Book 4.15.4 A, supports the concept that the violation occurs as soon as the ball is pushed to the floor, with no reference to subsequent touching by the ballhandler.

Case Book 4.15.4 C, supports the concept that the violation occurs when (because) the ballhandler is first to touch the ball.

Case Book 4.15.4 D, (c) and (d), seem to equate catching the ball with fumbling the ball. And that seems to be consistent with Rule Book 9-5-3, and Case Book 9.5 (b) and (c).

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

Case Book 4.15.4 A, supports the concept that the violation occurs as soon as the ball is pushed to the floor, with no reference to subsequent touching by the ballhandler.

yep

Case Book 4.15.4 C, supports the concept that the violation occurs when (because) the ballhandler is first to touch the ball.

This case deals with throwing the ball off the opponent's backboard or an official, not pushing it to the floor.

Case Book 4.15.4 D, (c) and (d), seem to equate catching the ball with fumbling the ball. And that seems to be consistent with Rule Book 9-5-3, and Case Book 9.5 (b) and (c).

A fumble can occur at any time, but read the definition of a fumble. It includes the phrase "loss of player control". A dribble cannot occur when a player is not in control.