Ball comes in contact with both hands while dribbling

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by potato

Actually you are spot on on what i meant.

So in short within a dribble, a ball cannot touch both hands whether same time or different and no matter how light the touch was even if it's just the fingernails?

As stated above (more than once) the touch with both hands ends the dribble. If the ball is subsequently pushed to the floor, not fumbled, this is the start of another dribble and a violation.

What if the ball handler was trying to protect the ball from a reach in attempt and the defender happens to bump his off ball hand into the ball, and he continues to dribble, would you call it a double dribble or would you see it as unintentional? Since you guys usually don't call for illegal contacts on incidental contacts.

Intent has no bearing on a violation. Contact is illegal or incidental. It cannot be both. It can be either one, regardless of intent.

And also would you see the dribble has ended if the dribbler the ball was accidentally caught between his hand & waist for a very brief moment, doesn't look like a hold but contact between hand/ball/waist.

This is a judgment call. If, in the official's opinion, it "doesn't look like a hold" play on.

[Rob1968]

Quote: "As stated above (more than once) the touch with both hands ends the dribble. If the ball is subsequently pushed to the floor, not fumbled, this is the start of another dribble and a violation."
It becomes a violation only if the ball bounces up and is touched by the hand or hands of the ballhandler. If the ballhandler is not first to touch the ball, after pushing it to the floor, the action is the same as a bounce pass.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

It becomes a violation only if the ball bounces up and is touched by the hand or hands of the ballhandler. If the ballhandler is not first to touch the ball, after pushing it to the floor, the action is the same as a bounce pass.

This is debatable. Some agree with you. But from where I sit, this is not true. Read the definition of a dribble. The ball is pushed to the floor once or several times. A subsequent touch is not necessary to meet this definition.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by just another ref

This is debatable. Some agree with you. But from where I sit, this is not true. Read the definition of a dribble. The ball is pushed to the floor once or several times. A subsequent touch is not necessary to meet this definition.

Agree. It is just by convention that officials often wait until it is touched again in order to resolve the ambiguity of whether the action is a dribble or a bounce pass.

[Rob1968]

I'm missing the ambiguity - if it is immediately a violation, to have stopped a dribble, and then push the ball to the floor - then every bounce pass, after a dribble has ended, would have to be a violation.
Example: A1 in frontcourt, dribbles to the top of the key, stops and stops his dribble. As A2 comes from the wing past A1, A1 pushes the ball to the floor as a pass to A2 - but the official blows his whistle . . . OOOPS - and the coach goes nuts, and all 10 players rightfully are confused (they've practiced that play 100's of times.)
To "start a dribble" is not the same thing as "a dribble" . . .

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

I'm missing the ambiguity - if it is immediately a violation, to have stopped a dribble, and then push the ball to the floor - then every bounce pass, after a dribble has ended, would have to be a violation.
Example: A1 in frontcourt, dribbles to the top of the key, stops and stops his dribble. As A2 comes from the wing past A1, A1 pushes the ball to the floor as a pass to A2 - but the official blows his whistle . . . OOOPS - and the coach goes nuts, and all 10 players rightfully are confused (they've practiced that play 100's of times.)
To "start a dribble" is not the same thing as "a dribble" . . .

It's a judgment call. The majority of the time, a pass and the start of a dribble don't really look much alike.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

I'm missing the ambiguity - if it is immediately a violation, to have stopped a dribble, and then push the ball to the floor - then every bounce pass, after a dribble has ended, would have to be a violation.
Example: A1 in frontcourt, dribbles to the top of the key, stops and stops his dribble. As A2 comes from the wing past A1, A1 pushes the ball to the floor as a pass to A2 - but the official blows his whistle . . . OOOPS - and the coach goes nuts, and all 10 players rightfully are confused (they've practiced that play 100's of times.)
To "start a dribble" is not the same thing as "a dribble" . . .

Yes, you're missing it the point. When it IS a dribble, it is so the moment it leaves the hand. When it IS a pass, it is so the moment it leaves the hand. It is just that it is sometimes impossible to tell and we must wait to see what happens to tell what it is.

[Rob1968]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Yes, you're missing it the point. When it IS a dribble, it is so the moment it leaves the hand. When it IS a pass, it is so the moment it leaves the hand. It is just that it is sometimes impossible to tell and we must wait to see what happens to tell what it is.

And I see it, it's ALWAYS impossible to tell, and we must wait to see what happens to tell what it is.
Example: A1 ends his dribble, obviously passes the ball towards A2 by pushing the ball to the floor (bounce pass) - ah, but A2 has not paid attention, and has gone the other direction, and A1 sees that the ball is in jeopardy of being stolen, so he hustles to it and is first to touch the ball. It's either a dbl dribble or travel violation - even tho' the "pushing the ball to the floor" was definitely intended to be a pass.
The difficulty comes from taking 4-15-3 as a complete statement, when it only deals with "starting" a dribble, and for a dribble to be executed, it must include the "end" of a dribble, as described in 4-15-4.
For my own understanding, I think of the fact that every year many people start to swim across the English channel, but only those who reach the other side have actually ended the swim, have actually done it.