Ball comes in contact with both hands while dribbling

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Adam

No, I'm penalizing the defense for kicking the ball out of bounds.

Ball was dead when it was knocked out of bounds.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Ball was dead when it was knocked out of bounds.

For the one time in your career you see this play, call it however you want.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

Quote: "Remember, you can fumble-dribble-fumble so both plays are legal. In play A, A1 would not be able to dribble again."
I've always understood the "fumble - dribble - fumble" concept to be:
1st fumble - in attempting to catch/control the ball upon receiving it, as in receiving a pass -
2nd fumble - in attempting to end the dribble -
and not after having ended the dribble, successfully, and then fumbling the ball. My understanding of that fumble, and then being 1st to touch the ball, is that would be considered a 2nd, dbl dribble, violation. Indeed, the "Simplified and Illustrated Manual" seems to support that understanding, in the illustration of 4-15-4.
If, after successfully ending a dribble by controlling the ball, a player is allowed to fumble the ball to the floor and recover it, how many times is that allowable?

Theoretically, it's infinite. Let me ask, what violation would you call?

[Rob1968]

Originally Posted by Adam

Theoretically, it's infinite. Let me ask, what violation would you call?

If, having ended a dribble by controlling the ball, the ball is fumbled to the floor, and the ball handler is first to touch it, I understand it to be a dbl dribble violation.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

If, having ended a dribble by controlling the ball, the ball is fumbled to the floor, and the ball handler is first to touch it, I understand it to be a dbl dribble violation.

A dribble cannot be started by a fumble. This actually strengthens the above argument. The official must judge what the player is doing when the ball is released.

Dribble Pass Fumble Try

[Rob1968]

Originally Posted by just another ref

A dribble cannot be started by a fumble. This actually strengthens the above argument. The official must judge what the player is doing when the ball is released.

Dribble Pass Fumble Try

Case Book 4.15.4 A, supports the concept that the violation occurs as soon as the ball is pushed to the floor, with no reference to subsequent touching by the ballhandler.

Case Book 4.15.4 C, supports the concept that the violation occurs when (because) the ballhandler is first to touch the ball.

Case Book 4.15.4 D, (c) and (d), seem to equate catching the ball with fumbling the ball. And that seems to be consistent with Rule Book 9-5-3, and Case Book 9.5 (b) and (c).

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

Case Book 4.15.4 A, supports the concept that the violation occurs as soon as the ball is pushed to the floor, with no reference to subsequent touching by the ballhandler.

yep

Case Book 4.15.4 C, supports the concept that the violation occurs when (because) the ballhandler is first to touch the ball.

This case deals with throwing the ball off the opponent's backboard or an official, not pushing it to the floor.

Case Book 4.15.4 D, (c) and (d), seem to equate catching the ball with fumbling the ball. And that seems to be consistent with Rule Book 9-5-3, and Case Book 9.5 (b) and (c).

A fumble can occur at any time, but read the definition of a fumble. It includes the phrase "loss of player control". A dribble cannot occur when a player is not in control.

[BillyMac]

4.15.4 SITUATION A: As dribbler A1 attempts to change directions to avoid
guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball
from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an
attempt to continue the dribble. RULING: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the
dribble ended and when he/she pushed the ball to the floor a violation occurred.
(9-5)

4.15.4 SITUATION C: After dribbling and coming to a stop, A1 throws the ball:
(a) against the opponent’s backboard and catches the rebound; (b) against an
official, immediately recovers the ball and dribbles again; or (c) against his/her
own backboard in an attempt to score (try), catches the rebound and dribbles
again. RULING: A1 has violated in both (a) and (b). Throwing the ball against the
opponent’s backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is
first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. In (c), the action is
legal. Once the ball is released on the try, there is no player or team control, therefore,
A1 can recover the rebound and begin a dribble.

4.15.4 SITUATION D: While dribbling: (a) A1 bats the ball over the head of an
opponent, runs around the opponent, bats the ball to the floor and continues to
dribble; (b) the ball bounces away but A1 is able to get to it and continues to dribble;
(c) the ball hits A1’s foot and bounces away but A1 is able to overtake and
pick it up; or (d) A1 fumbles the ball in ending the dribble so that A1 must run to
recover it. RULING: Violation in (a), because the ball was touched twice by A1’s
hand(s) during a dribble, before it touched the floor. In (b), even though the dribble
was interrupted it has not ended and A1 may continue the dribble. In (c), the
dribble ended when A1 caught the ball; and it ended in (d) when it was fumbled.
Even though the dribble has ended in (c) and (d), A1 may recover the ball but may
not dribble again. (9-5)

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Yep

4.15.4 SITUATION A: As dribbler A1 attempts to change directions to avoid
guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball
from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an
attempt to continue the dribble. RULING: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the
dribble ended and when he/she pushed the ball to the floor a violation occurred.
(9-5)

You don't have to read a player's mind here because the case play editor does it for you. He's attempting "to continue the dibble". Without that reference, he could be starting a bounce pass. If a ball handler, who has already dribbled once, and then holds the ball, tells me, "Hey Mr. BillyMac, I'm going to start another dribble when I push the ball to the floor", then I will call him for an illegal dribble violation when the ball leaves his hand. However, I'm not going to hold my breath until that happens.

Let's change it up a little: As dribbler A1 attempts to change directions to avoid
guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball
from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an
attempt to make a bounce pass to A2. RULING: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the
dribble ended and when he/she pushed the ball to the floor he attempted a legal
bounce pass.(9-5-Note: Play On)

Or, even better: As dribbler A1 attempts to change directions to avoid
guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball
from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an
attempt to do something that only God, and the player, know. RULING: When A1
palmed/carried the ball, the dribble ended and when he/she pushed the ball to
the floor nobody, except God, and the player, knows what to call, so, unless God
is your partner, then play on. (9-5-Note: Crystal Ball)

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by just another ref

A1 has used his dribble. He fakes a pass, gives a head fake, then puts the ball on the floor and tries to drive baseline. After the ball hits the floor B1 knocks it out of bounds.

You're going to give it back to A?

Nope. Given the description A1 is dribbling again, which would be illegal. It happened in front of me this past week at a camp, I called the illegal dribble and we went along our merry way. To borrow from one of my clinicians, the illegal dribble is the elephant in this play. The defender making contact with the ball after it hits the floor is the ant.

Originally Posted by Adam

No, I'm penalizing the defense for kicking the ball out of bounds.

Where does it say B1 kicked the ball out of bounds?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

You don't have to read a player's mind here because the case play editor does it for you. He's attempting "to continue the dibble". Without that reference, he could be starting a bounce pass.

In my play it was a given also.

"puts the ball on the floor and tries to drive baseline"

Yet you and Adam refuse to call the violation because the dribble was not validated by a subsequent touch. This is not supported by rule.

If a ball handler, who has already dribbled once, and then holds the ball, tells me, "Hey Mr. BillyMac, I'm going to start another dribble when I push the ball to the floor", then I will call him for an illegal dribble violation when the ball leaves his hand.

This is wrong, too. You don't call it intentional when the coach yells for the player to foul. The play must be judged on its own merit.

Let's change it up a little: As dribbler A1 attempts to change directions to avoid
guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball
from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an
attempt to make a bounce pass to A2. RULING: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the
dribble ended and when he/she pushed the ball to the floor he attempted a legal
bounce pass.(9-5-Note: Play On)

If you judged it to be a pass attempt, yes, play on. 9-5 has no note.

Or, even better: As dribbler A1 attempts to change directions to avoid
guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball
from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an
attempt to do something that only God, and the player, know. RULING: When A1
palmed/carried the ball, the dribble ended and when he/she pushed the ball to
the floor nobody, except God, and the player, knows what to call, so, unless God
is your partner, then play on.

Pretty thin, Billy. Do you ask God whether to award two shots when you are uncertain of a player's intent on a potential try?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Nope. Given the description A1 is dribbling again, which would be illegal. It happened in front of me this past week at a camp, I called the illegal dribble and we went along our merry way. To borrow from one of my clinicians, the illegal dribble is the elephant in this play. The defender making contact with the ball after it hits the floor is the ant.




Where does it say B1 kicked the ball out of bounds?

I don't think that was the point. Kicked out of bounds, knocked out of bounds. Either way, the illegal dribble occurred first.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Given the description A1 is dribbling again, which would be illegal.

Because the description includes the phrase "tries to drive baseline", which, at least to me, shows intent to start a new dribble. Now take out that phrase, how do you know that the player is not starting a bounce pass, maybe an ugly bounce pass, but, nevertheless, a bounce pass? Let the ball come back off the floor and touch A1's hand, then you'll be 100% sure that it's an illegal "double" dribble. Other than that, most officials don't call fouls, or violations, when they are not 100% sure that a foul, or a violation, occurred.

A veteran basketball official, Confucius, once told me, "When in doubt, don't be".

[just another ref]

Officials who call only what they are 100% sure of don't call enough. JMO

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Do you ask God whether to award two shots when you are uncertain of a player's intent on a potential try?

If it looks like a try, swims like a try, and quacks like a try, then it probably is a try.



(During last week's heat wave here in Connecticut, I was forced to dunk my two pet hens, Betty, and Veronica, in a bucket of cool water twice a day to cool them off. They never really seemed to enjoy it.)