Ball comes in contact with both hands while dribbling

[Rob1968]

I'm missing the ambiguity - if it is immediately a violation, to have stopped a dribble, and then push the ball to the floor - then every bounce pass, after a dribble has ended, would have to be a violation.
Example: A1 in frontcourt, dribbles to the top of the key, stops and stops his dribble. As A2 comes from the wing past A1, A1 pushes the ball to the floor as a pass to A2 - but the official blows his whistle . . . OOOPS - and the coach goes nuts, and all 10 players rightfully are confused (they've practiced that play 100's of times.)
To "start a dribble" is not the same thing as "a dribble" . . .

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

I'm missing the ambiguity - if it is immediately a violation, to have stopped a dribble, and then push the ball to the floor - then every bounce pass, after a dribble has ended, would have to be a violation.
Example: A1 in frontcourt, dribbles to the top of the key, stops and stops his dribble. As A2 comes from the wing past A1, A1 pushes the ball to the floor as a pass to A2 - but the official blows his whistle . . . OOOPS - and the coach goes nuts, and all 10 players rightfully are confused (they've practiced that play 100's of times.)
To "start a dribble" is not the same thing as "a dribble" . . .

It's a judgment call. The majority of the time, a pass and the start of a dribble don't really look much alike.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

I'm missing the ambiguity - if it is immediately a violation, to have stopped a dribble, and then push the ball to the floor - then every bounce pass, after a dribble has ended, would have to be a violation.
Example: A1 in frontcourt, dribbles to the top of the key, stops and stops his dribble. As A2 comes from the wing past A1, A1 pushes the ball to the floor as a pass to A2 - but the official blows his whistle . . . OOOPS - and the coach goes nuts, and all 10 players rightfully are confused (they've practiced that play 100's of times.)
To "start a dribble" is not the same thing as "a dribble" . . .

Yes, you're missing it the point. When it IS a dribble, it is so the moment it leaves the hand. When it IS a pass, it is so the moment it leaves the hand. It is just that it is sometimes impossible to tell and we must wait to see what happens to tell what it is.

[Rob1968]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Yes, you're missing it the point. When it IS a dribble, it is so the moment it leaves the hand. When it IS a pass, it is so the moment it leaves the hand. It is just that it is sometimes impossible to tell and we must wait to see what happens to tell what it is.

And I see it, it's ALWAYS impossible to tell, and we must wait to see what happens to tell what it is.
Example: A1 ends his dribble, obviously passes the ball towards A2 by pushing the ball to the floor (bounce pass) - ah, but A2 has not paid attention, and has gone the other direction, and A1 sees that the ball is in jeopardy of being stolen, so he hustles to it and is first to touch the ball. It's either a dbl dribble or travel violation - even tho' the "pushing the ball to the floor" was definitely intended to be a pass.
The difficulty comes from taking 4-15-3 as a complete statement, when it only deals with "starting" a dribble, and for a dribble to be executed, it must include the "end" of a dribble, as described in 4-15-4.
For my own understanding, I think of the fact that every year many people start to swim across the English channel, but only those who reach the other side have actually ended the swim, have actually done it.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

And I see it, it's ALWAYS impossible to tell, and we must wait to see what happens to tell what it is.
Example: A1 ends his dribble, obviously passes the ball towards A2 by pushing the ball to the floor (bounce pass) - ah, but A2 has not paid attention, and has gone the other direction, and A1 sees that the ball is in jeopardy of being stolen, so he hustles to it and is first to touch the ball. It's either a dbl dribble or travel violation - even tho' the "pushing the ball to the floor" was definitely intended to be a pass.
The difficulty comes from taking 4-15-3 as a complete statement, when it only deals with "starting" a dribble, and for a dribble to be executed, it must include the "end" of a dribble, as described in 4-15-4.
For my own understanding, I think of the fact that every year many people start to swim across the English channel, but only those who reach the other side have actually ended the swim, have actually done it.

So do you think that an official must wait until a player not only starts a new dribble, but ends it as well, to penalize the action as an illegal dribble violation?
That won't be accepted.

[Rob1968]

That is my understanding. I can't, presently, view a dbl dribble call as having much to do with judgement - it is or is not. Is it possible to describe a play that may/may not be called a dbl dribblle violation, based on judgement?
I'm reminded of the old idea that an attempt at goal - shot - had to be defined by whether it hit the goal or not, in order for the shooter to be able to rebound the miss - that goes way back. With the current definitions of when a shot starts, and when it ends, now, a genuine attempt at goal, in the judgement of the official, allows the shooter to rebound a miss, whether or not it hits the goal. (A distinct situation, but the logic has some relevance.)

[Rob1968]

Perhaps, this will be of interest in our discussion:
a)A1, having ended his dribble, holds the ball for a few seconds, and then pushes the ball to the floor, and (A) is or (B) is not first to touch it.
b) A1, having ended his dribble, holds the ball for a few seconds, and then fumbles the ball to the floor, and (A) is or (B) is not first to touch it.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

That is my understanding. I can't, presently, view a dbl dribble call as having much to do with judgement - it is or is not. Is it possible to describe a play that may/may not be called a dbl dribblle violation, based on judgment?

Remember, in NFHS 9-5 the definition of an illegal dribble begins with the phrase "A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended..." It doesn't say anything about the second dribble ending as well. Granted there is judgment involved if A1 has a teammate near him/her who may be receiving a bounce pass but that's generally a Stevie Wonder-type play: we'll be able to tell 99% of the time whether it's a pass. The other 1% is what we get paid for.

Originally Posted by Rob1968

a)A1, having ended his dribble, holds the ball for a few seconds, and then pushes the ball to the floor, and (A) is or (B) is not first to touch it.

A = obvious illegal dribble
B = you have to be there and see how the play is developing

Originally Posted by Rob1968

b) A1, having ended his dribble, holds the ball for a few seconds, and then fumbles the ball to the floor, and (A) is or (B) is not first to touch it.

Remember, you can fumble-dribble-fumble so both plays are legal. In play A, A1 would not be able to dribble again.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

A1, having ended his dribble, holds the ball for a few seconds, and then pushes the ball to the floor, and is not first to touch it.

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

You have to be there and see how the play is developing.

And I'll wait up to seven minutes and fifty-nine seconds to see how this play develops before I decide to sound my whistle for a "double dribble" violation here. This is a very open ended situation. A lot can happen here: ball touches teammate, ball touches opponent, ball goes out of bounds, team control foul, defensive foul, player excessively swinging elbows, players fighting, coach screaming at officials, and being charged with a technical foul, player getting hurt, player displaces eye glasses that fall onto the court, ball slowly stops bouncing and remains motionless on the floor, a meteorite striking, and destroying, the gymnasium, an earthquake, a terrible flood, locusts, etc.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

And I'll wait up to seven minutes and fifty-nine seconds to see how this play develops before I decide to sound my whistle for a "double dribble" violation here. This is a very open ended situation. A lot can happen here: ball touches opponent.......

A1 has used his dribble. He fakes a pass, gives a head fake, then puts the ball on the floor and tries to drive baseline. After the ball hits the floor B1 knocks it out of bounds.

You're going to give it back to A?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

A1 has used his dribble. He fakes a pass, gives a head fake, then puts the ball on the floor and tries to drive baseline. After the ball hits the floor B1 knocks it out of bounds.

You're going to give it back to A?

I am.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Adam

I am.

You're penalizing the defense for playing good defense by ignoring a violation.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

You're penalizing the defense for playing good defense by ignoring a violation.

No, I'm penalizing the defense for kicking the ball out of bounds.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

You're going to give it back to A?

Until I learn how to read a player's mind, yes I am.

[Rob1968]

Quote: "Remember, you can fumble-dribble-fumble so both plays are legal. In play A, A1 would not be able to dribble again."
I've always understood the "fumble - dribble - fumble" concept to be:
1st fumble - in attempting to catch/control the ball upon receiving it, as in receiving a pass -
2nd fumble - in attempting to end the dribble -
and not after having ended the dribble, successfully, and then fumbling the ball. My understanding of that fumble, and then being 1st to touch the ball, is that would be considered a 2nd, dbl dribble, violation. Indeed, the "Simplified and Illustrated Manual" seems to support that understanding, in the illustration of 4-15-4.
If, after successfully ending a dribble by controlling the ball, a player is allowed to fumble the ball to the floor and recover it, how many times is that allowable?