WCF Game 2 FF1

[Bad Zebra]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I just saw the play. It would have been an IF in HS and a FF at the other levels. The acting was a bit much, but the call was made before that I am sure.

Agreed....Allen rolling around holding his head reminds me of a soccer player grabbing his leg as he flops to the turf for no apparent reason. Just get up and take your free throws....sheesh.

[HokiePaul]

A quick question based on NFHS rules. I can see the Intentional Foul call here, but I don't see it as extremely obvious -- my initial thought was this is borderline. So my question ... does the fall factor into the equation when making this decision?

And if not, what is the primary reason you would call this an IF in a HS game? The advantageous position of the shooter? Contact not playing the ball? Excessive contact? Just curious.

I see a bit of a hold on the arm after the initial contact, which is why I would probably call it intentional. But in real time, it looked like there was some attempt made to play the ball, and I thought that Ginobali got back into the play enough so that it was not neutralizing an obvious advantageous position by the offense, which is one of the possible reasons for an intentional foul.

[JRutledge]

I would call an IF for excessive contact. His behavior afterwards would not go into the equation. He was clearly pulled down from behind and fell hard to the floor. This would be a rather easy call for me. I cannot see myself thinking twice in this situation.

Peace

[JRutledge]

BTW, Steve Javie said it was the correct call. For those that do not know Javie works for ESPN now and is a former NBA Official.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I would call an IF for excessive contact.

I would also, but I can also see an official charging just a "regular" intentional foul because grabbing the non shooting arm is not a basketball play, just as "intentional" as a "bear hug", or a two handed push in the back, which I also don't consider basketball plays.

I can also see an official charging this as a flagrant personal foul (violent or savage nature). I personally wouldn't go that route, but I wouldn't have a major problem with an official that decided to go that way.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I would also, but I can also see an official charging just a "regular" intentional foul because grabbing the non shooting arm is not a basketball play, almost as bad as a "bear hug", or a two handed push in the back, which I also don't consider basketball plays.

I can also see an official charging this as a flagrant personal foul (violent or savage nature). I personally wouldn't go that route, but I wouldn't have a major problem with an official that decided to go that way.

I could see it too, but that does not mean I will agree with them.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

A quick question based on NFHS rules. I can see the Intentional Foul call here, but I don't see it as extremely obvious -- my initial thought was this is borderline. So my question ... does the fall factor into the equation when making this decision?

And if not, what is the primary reason you would call this an IF in a HS game? The advantageous position of the shooter? Contact not playing the ball? Excessive contact? Just curious.

I see a bit of a hold on the arm after the initial contact, which is why I would probably call it intentional. But in real time, it looked like there was some attempt made to play the ball, and I thought that Ginobali got back into the play enough so that it was not neutralizing an obvious advantageous position by the offense, which is one of the possible reasons for an intentional foul.

That is the only reason this goes IF/FF1. He made a play on the ball and was in a position to make a play on the ball. He didn't just grab a guy in an advantageous position. But, he missed the ball and got the arm...which is still an common foul. Unfortunately, he continued to hold on knowing he didn't have the ball and pulled the player down. That is where it went IF/FF1.

[MathReferee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

That is the only reason this goes IF/FF1. He made a play on the ball and was in a position to make a play on the ball. He didn't just grab a guy in an advantageous position. But, he missed the ball and got the arm...which is still an common foul. Unfortunately, he continue to hold on knowing he didn't have the ball and pulled the player down. That is where it went IF/FF1.

+1

Does the NBA's new flopping rule/fine come into play here for Allen's antics after the play? It does not appear he hit his head on anything, but I also don't think there is a question that he fell pretty hard. Despite not hitting his head, I can see the play causing him to be a little woozy, but cannot see any reason for him to be writhing on the ground. In OT, I think he was the Memphis player that was not even running up the court anymore and came up about ten feet short on a wide open three. So maybe it's possible he sustained some sort of head injury on the play (maybe something happened in OT that I missed though).

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by MathReferee

+1

Does the NBA's new flopping rule/fine come into play here for Allen's antics after the play?

No. He was clearly and obviously fouled. He didn't flop or exaggerate the foul.

I don't know where or if he did hit his head but after that amount of contact, I don't really care (as far as the flopping rules/fines go).

[MathReferee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

No. He was clearly and obviously fouled. He didn't flop or exaggerated the foul.

I don't know where or if he did hit his head but after that amount of contact, I don't really care (as far as the flopping rules/fines go).

I agree that I would certainly give him the benefit of the doubt on this play, even though it seemed a bit theatrical.

Originally Posted by MathReferee

Does the NBA's new flopping rule/fine come into play here for Allen's antics after the play?

Flopping is exaggerating contact in order to draw a foul where there is none. Did that happen on this play?

Originally Posted by MathReferee

In OT, I think he was the Memphis player that was not even running up the court anymore and came up about ten feet short on a wide open three. So maybe it's possible he sustained some sort of head injury on the play (maybe something happened in OT that I missed though).

Certainly possible, but it looked to me like he got tired and lost his legs.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

And if not, what is the primary reason you would call this an IF in a HS game? The advantageous position of the shooter? Contact not playing the ball? Excessive contact? Just curious..

Excessive contact. It's not the initial contact that's bad -- it's the grab and pull down.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra

Agreed....Allen rolling around holding his head reminds me of a soccer player grabbing his leg as he flops to the turf for no apparent reason. Just get up and take your free throws....sheesh.

+1

Good grief.