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-   -   T or no T (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/94956-t-no-t.html)

Nevadaref Tue May 07, 2013 05:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee (Post 893172)
It depends. If that's the first time I'm addressing her not a T. In fact I would have gone and picked up the ball and been clear to her that next time I won't be so nice. I also won't make a big deal of the whole thing.

Asking her to pick up the ball and her pushing it to you (I mean I don't see it as a kick) then T'ing her up, eh I don't know. If you felt so disrespected, T it when you first feel that (i.e. when she put the ball down).

Also I don't think she put the ball down with attitude, she just put it down. What do you do if a team calls a TO and the player with the ball does the same?

This seems like looking for trouble if this is the first time you are addressing this player and it's with a T here. I'm in the pool with Adam on how I would look at this play as far as the T.
Everything in this post is indicative of a young, inexperienced official who gets walked on by players such as this and coaches who will demonstrate displeasure.
Sadly, those who officiate in such a manner send the message to the coaches and players that such behavior is okay and contribute to all officials having to deal with this garbage.

deecee Tue May 07, 2013 06:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 893174)
Everything in this post is indicative of a young, inexperienced official who gets walked on by players such as this and coaches who will demonstrate displeasure.
Sadly, those who officiate in such a manner send the message to the coaches and players that such behavior is okay and contribute to all officials having to deal with this garbage.
I love your generalization and judging but I think after 10 years of officiating I don't need you or most other officials to tell me what I can and cannot tolerate. And for your information I take care of business when needed, this didn't seem like much except for potentially being overly officious.

Adam Tue May 07, 2013 06:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee (Post 893172)
It depends. If that's the first time I'm addressing her not a T. In fact I would have gone and picked up the ball and been clear to her that next time I won't be so nice. I also won't make a big deal of the whole thing.

Asking her to pick up the ball and her pushing it to you (I mean I don't see it as a kick) then T'ing her up, eh I don't know. If you felt so disrespected, T it when you first feel that (i.e. when she put the ball down).

Also I don't think she put the ball down with attitude, she just put it down. What do you do if a team calls a TO and the player with the ball does the same?

This seems like looking for trouble if this is the first time you are addressing this player and it's with a T here. I'm in the pool with Adam on how I would look at this play as far as the T.
You're not quite on my page. While I agree the "kick" was more of a push, I'm not going to say it's looking for trouble to call the T. Call the T, and the next time a ref asks her to get the ball, she'll pick it up and throw it to him nicely.

She absolutely put the ball down out of disgust, there's no question about that. While I can watch this and second guess whether a T should be called, chances are good that on the floor, I would have called the T when she kicked it. If I'd already talked to her, she wouldn't have even had that chance.

RefAHallic Tue May 07, 2013 06:21pm
You know what? This girl deserves a technical. Someone said it earlier...her actions were clearly an attempt to show up the officials. Don't know how I didn't arrive at that conclusion initially. :confused:

deecee Tue May 07, 2013 06:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RefAHallic (Post 893177)
You know what? This girl deserves a technical. Someone said it earlier...her actions were clearly an attempt to show up the officials. Don't know how I didn't arrive at that conclusion initially. :confused:
I don't see that. She puts the ball down calmly, and I don't see any gestures or her mouthing anything (the later would be tough), and I don't see any over the top behavior which is usually accompanied in instances like this. She comes out of the pack calmly and places the ball on the court. Generally in this instance a player that is upset will put the ball on the court more forcefully and be making some kind of gesture (i.e. shaking the head in disgust, rolling eyes, etc.).

The fact that I don't see any of this is suspect (it's also a small clip of a longer game, so I don't know what has happened up to now, and I'm only judging what I would do based on this clip).

JRutledge Tue May 07, 2013 06:38pm
Well that is the chance these players or coaches take. When they show displeasure they risk the chance someone will not take it well. So it was better of her to pick the ball up or leave it alone in the first place. It is like flipping a bat or raising your arms after a ball-strike call in a baseball game. Some umpires might not take too kindly to that action.

Peace

Nevadaref Tue May 07, 2013 06:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee (Post 893175)
I love your generalization and judging but I think after 10 years of officiating I don't need you or most other officials to tell me what I can and cannot tolerate.
Should read: One year of experience ten times. What's the point if one doesn't learn from errors and improve? I really don't care what you put up with when you are on the court because I don't give a darn about you personally, however I'm wise enough to understand that the striped shirt represents all of us and any situation in which a player or coach disrespects an official publically is an offense to all officials, and that I do care about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee (Post 893175)
And for your information I take care of business when needed, this didn't seem like much except for potentially being overly officious.
I don't know whether you do or not because I've never seen you work, but based upon what I've read in your posts on this forum, including this one, you don't deal properly with unsporting behavior. A clear indication of that is your disappointing comment that penalizing this player would be "overly officious." You sound just like a coach.

Nevadaref Tue May 07, 2013 06:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee (Post 893178)
I don't see that. She puts the ball down calmly, and I don't see any gestures or her mouthing anything (the later would be tough), and I don't see any over the top behavior which is usually accompanied in instances like this. She comes out of the pack calmly and places the ball on the court. Generally in this instance a player that is upset will put the ball on the court more forcefully and be making some kind of gesture (i.e. shaking the head in disgust, rolling eyes, etc.).

The fact that I don't see any of this is suspect (it's also a small clip of a longer game, so I don't know what has happened up to now, and I'm only judging what I would do based on this clip).
Are you even aware of this rule?

SECTION 3 PLAYER TECHNICAL
A player shall not:
ART. 5 . . . Delay the game by acts such as:
...
b. Failing when in possession, to immediately pass the ball to the nearer
official when a whistle blows

deecee Tue May 07, 2013 06:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 893184)
Are you even aware of this rule?

SECTION 3 PLAYER TECHNICAL
A player shall not:
ART. 5 . . . Delay the game by acts such as:
...
b. Failing when in possession, to immediately pass the ball to the nearer
official when a whistle blows
Yes, and if you adjudicate that rule as written you will have quite a lot of T's every game.

JRutledge Tue May 07, 2013 07:00pm
There is a lot of judgment involved even if you go by the black and white of the rule. Not every action is going to be seen as a delay the rule speaks about.

Peace

Nevadaref Tue May 07, 2013 07:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee (Post 893186)
Yes, and if you adjudicate that rule as written you will have quite a lot of T's every game.
I see that you don't even grasp when it is appropriate to use such a rule. Must be all that great insight you are receiving at those college camps.

Camron Rust Tue May 07, 2013 07:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 893184)
Are you even aware of this rule?

SECTION 3 PLAYER TECHNICAL
A player shall not:
ART. 5 . . . Delay the game by acts such as:
...
b. Failing when in possession, to immediately pass the ball to the nearer
official when a whistle blows
Wow. you must have a lot of T's in your games.

The player in possession of the ball when the whistle blows often does not pass the ball to the nearer official. It may eventually get there, but it it is often not immediate and is often another player.

I guess, taken literally, this rule means that a player who is fouled after beginning a shot attempt and in continuous motion could earn a T for continuing with the shot! :eek: :p

Also, what if they pass it to the farther official because they don't see the nearer official or don't pull out their tape measure to verify who is closest? Is that a T too? :eek: :p ;);)


But seriously, now, I agree that sitting the ball on the floor is sufficient to earn the T.

RefAHallic Tue May 07, 2013 08:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee (Post 893178)
Generally in this instance a player that is upset will put the ball on the court more forcefully and be making some kind of gesture (i.e. shaking the head in disgust, rolling eyes, etc.).
This wasn't a gesture indicating she was upset?! The player left the ball in the corner initially. When asked to retrieve it the player walked back to the spot, picked up the ball, put the ball back on the floor, then kicked it to the official. She didn't kick it with the force to bend it like Beckham, but the intent of her actions was still the same: to show her displeasure with the official. No arms waving, jumping up and down or screaming necessary. The official even felt the disrespect. We'll never know, but I bet he didn't say "thank you" when she walked past.

rockyroad Tue May 07, 2013 09:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 893189)
I see that you don't even grasp when it is appropriate to use such a rule. Must be all that great insight you are receiving at those college camps.
And of course posts like this ( and your earlier ones to deecee) go such a long way towards keeping good young officials involved in the HS game. As you said, you don't give a darn what he thinks, and I would imagine that he doesn't give a darn what you think.

And as a couple others have already pointed out, there is no way you T a player every single time they fail to immediately give the ball to the nearest official after a whistle blows. No. Way.

Adam Tue May 07, 2013 10:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockyroad (Post 893202)
And as a couple others have already pointed out, there is no way you T a player every single time they fail to immediately give the ball to the nearest official after a whistle blows. No. Way.
I'm obviously on the fence on whether I'd call the T, but this isn't the standard situation where the player simply can't find the ref or forgets. The new L is clearly (it seems to me) and verbally asking her for the ball when she just plops it down in the corner of the court.

That's not typical, standard behavior in any situation. I've never seen it done. It's essentially the same as throwing it into the corner while the official stands 10 feet away asking for the ball.


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