T or no T
 

Again courtesty of the Desert Valley Basketball Officials Association (so Brad, that means about 15-20 seconds of dead time ;))

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Looks like he had a word with her to knock it off. I'm fine with that approach. If it's the cherry on top of a lot of bad behavior that might be enough to whack but I'd have to be there to know for sure.

Definitely earned at least a yellow card!:eek:

New Lead did right in making her get the ball. Now, on the kick, if she is someone who has been an headache previously I would T as soon as she put foot to ball.

That girl has an ATTITUDE. Set the ball down...retrieve it by rolling it with her foot making the official pick it up....slowly walk in front of him and the FT shooter just to finish her point of disgust wit the call.

Wow.

Definitely a brief discussion as she saunters by...good move to have her retrieve it initially. As a singular act, I don't see it rising to a T-worthy level.

867-5309 ...
 

I would definitely be keeping an eye of #32 for the rest of the game. Anything marginal, will be called. Anything. She's one of those knuckleheads that we keep talking about here on the Forum. Being a sexist pig, I usually think of knuckleheads as being male, but, in reality, they do present themselves as different genders.

Whack.

I will be shocked if anyone who responds to this thread takes the position that this behavior by a player is acceptable.

The only reason that it continues to occur is that officials fail to penalize it.
We are our own worst enemy sometimes.

Nevada, when are you calling the T? When she puts the ball down or when she pushes it to you with her foot?

That's not the appropriate or professional manner to handle this.
Never allow your judgment on decisions to be influenced by anything. That compromises the integrity of the game.
Recommending that anything marginal from this player in the future will be a foul is an unfair way to officiate. Just take care of business and penalize the unsporting act when it occurs and then continue officiating the remainder of the contest in your normal manner.

Since both actions are unacceptable and against the rules, it really doesn't matter, but I feel that if there hasn't been a whistle before she kicks the ball, then one is certainly needed at that time. Everyone in the gym sees that and it slights the officiating crew and is an affront to the game overall.

Personally, it would come down to which position I had on the court. If I am next to this player, then my whistle sounds when she puts the ball down and walks away. If my partner is over there and chooses to instruct her to retrieve the ball, then I'm staying out of it until she elects to kick it. At that point I'm charging a T from anywhere on the court.

If this was the first act, wouldn't a game delay warning work? I'm sure the official didn't tell #32 to go back to the ball and kick it over to me. If this is in addition to other knucklehead conduct then spank her with a technical.

In this situation she should have been T'd as soon as she placed the ball on the floor. It is obvious that the new L is asking her for the ball as she does that, so go ahead and ring her up.

Under NFHS rules, there are only four situations under which you can issue a delay of game warning. This is not one of them.

It doesn't seem like she is doing that intentionally, she is heading to her bench the shortest route possible.

Also, I want to know what kind of girl's JV uses a shot clock??

It wasn't singular ... setting the ball down was singular. Kicking it ... I see as T-worthy

My whistle is getting air when she puts her foot on the ball. She got her "break'"when I told her to retrieve the ball. She is doing that to show up the officials. I won't be an enabler for that behavior.

I agree with this.

T when she kicks the ball. All day every day.

Definite T. This falls into the category of something you don't let a player do twice.

The ball would keep rolling. I would not pick up the ball or stop it in any way on purpose. If anything I would just stick her and get it over with. I doubt that was the first problem I would had with her.

Peace

Personally, I think the set-down is much worse than using her foot to push the ball to the official after he tells her to get it. I didn't see it as a kick, to be honest.

If I passed on the first T, I don't see calling her for the soccer move unless there's some body language or facial expression I missed the first time I watched it.

I could see myself using the "go get the ball" tactic. When she pushed the ball with the foot, it's whack time.

Knuckleheads ...
 

I see your point, but I'm always going to keep a close eye on the knuckleheads in the game. These are the players (usually football players trying to stay in shape during the winter) who are always blurring the "lines in the sand. These are the players who, very often, are involved with intentional "hard" fouls, flagrant fouls, and verbal confrontations, as well as physical fights. It's in the best interest of the officials to keep an eye on these types of players. I'm not saying to "make up" any calls, but if they do something illegal, then, by all means, don't think about passing on it.

In the case of the young lady in the video. Maybe she caught me by surprise, and maybe I passed on the technical foul the first time, but I can be sure that I won't pass on something similar again.

Let's flip this around. I've heard a philosophy to "protect the stars", that is, to pass on any some calls to keep the star players in the game. I do not agree with this philosophy.

This.


No need to elevate to a T if this is the first "incident" with this girl/team.

If they'd been doing nonsense before, I could see myself T'ing this, but I would work hard to prevent it. Then I may issue a direct warning to the white team while in the paint.

The L says something to the girl as she walks through the key after the L picks up the ball. I'd bet twoonies to doughnuts* that it was about kicking the ball.


* doughnuts cost a dollar these days, so this phrase had to be amended ;)

I agree. The setting the ball down wasn't necessarily showing up the officials -- I saw it more with frustration and not in and of itself worthy of a T.

But using her feet to push the ball back ... that is showing up the official (after being warned) and I'm giving her a T right then.

More On Knuckleheads ...
 

Remember this (below) from last year? This kid is the kind of knucklehead that's getting some extra attention from me in my game. I'm not going to make stuff up, but he's not getting a pass on anything illegal either.

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It depends. If that's the first time I'm addressing her not a T. In fact I would have gone and picked up the ball and been clear to her that next time I won't be so nice. I also won't make a big deal of the whole thing.

Asking her to pick up the ball and her pushing it to you (I mean I don't see it as a kick) then T'ing her up, eh I don't know. If you felt so disrespected, T it when you first feel that (i.e. when she put the ball down).

Also I don't think she put the ball down with attitude, she just put it down. What do you do if a team calls a TO and the player with the ball does the same?

This seems like looking for trouble if this is the first time you are addressing this player and it's with a T here. I'm in the pool with Adam on how I would look at this play as far as the T.

And I still disagree with what you are advocating.

In the case of the boys game from last year, some of the individual acts depicted in the video should have been penalized with either intentional or flagrant fouls, but the officials shouldn't have been looking for anything extra to assess to those players. That isn't within our job description. We are there to enforce the rules, not to selectively penalize certain individuals because we don't like something which they did previously.
Your entire method of thinking on this is flawed.

Everything in this post is indicative of a young, inexperienced official who gets walked on by players such as this and coaches who will demonstrate displeasure.
Sadly, those who officiate in such a manner send the message to the coaches and players that such behavior is okay and contribute to all officials having to deal with this garbage.

I love your generalization and judging but I think after 10 years of officiating I don't need you or most other officials to tell me what I can and cannot tolerate. And for your information I take care of business when needed, this didn't seem like much except for potentially being overly officious.

You're not quite on my page. While I agree the "kick" was more of a push, I'm not going to say it's looking for trouble to call the T. Call the T, and the next time a ref asks her to get the ball, she'll pick it up and throw it to him nicely.

She absolutely put the ball down out of disgust, there's no question about that. While I can watch this and second guess whether a T should be called, chances are good that on the floor, I would have called the T when she kicked it. If I'd already talked to her, she wouldn't have even had that chance.

You know what? This girl deserves a technical. Someone said it earlier...her actions were clearly an attempt to show up the officials. Don't know how I didn't arrive at that conclusion initially. :confused:

I don't see that. She puts the ball down calmly, and I don't see any gestures or her mouthing anything (the later would be tough), and I don't see any over the top behavior which is usually accompanied in instances like this. She comes out of the pack calmly and places the ball on the court. Generally in this instance a player that is upset will put the ball on the court more forcefully and be making some kind of gesture (i.e. shaking the head in disgust, rolling eyes, etc.).

The fact that I don't see any of this is suspect (it's also a small clip of a longer game, so I don't know what has happened up to now, and I'm only judging what I would do based on this clip).

Well that is the chance these players or coaches take. When they show displeasure they risk the chance someone will not take it well. So it was better of her to pick the ball up or leave it alone in the first place. It is like flipping a bat or raising your arms after a ball-strike call in a baseball game. Some umpires might not take too kindly to that action.

Peace

Should read: One year of experience ten times. What's the point if one doesn't learn from errors and improve? I really don't care what you put up with when you are on the court because I don't give a darn about you personally, however I'm wise enough to understand that the striped shirt represents all of us and any situation in which a player or coach disrespects an official publically is an offense to all officials, and that I do care about.
I don't know whether you do or not because I've never seen you work, but based upon what I've read in your posts on this forum, including this one, you don't deal properly with unsporting behavior. A clear indication of that is your disappointing comment that penalizing this player would be "overly officious." You sound just like a coach.

Are you even aware of this rule?

SECTION 3 PLAYER TECHNICAL
A player shall not:
ART. 5 . . . Delay the game by acts such as:
...
b. Failing when in possession, to immediately pass the ball to the nearer
official when a whistle blows

Yes, and if you adjudicate that rule as written you will have quite a lot of T's every game.

There is a lot of judgment involved even if you go by the black and white of the rule. Not every action is going to be seen as a delay the rule speaks about.

Peace

I see that you don't even grasp when it is appropriate to use such a rule. Must be all that great insight you are receiving at those college camps.

Wow. you must have a lot of T's in your games.

The player in possession of the ball when the whistle blows often does not pass the ball to the nearer official. It may eventually get there, but it it is often not immediate and is often another player.

I guess, taken literally, this rule means that a player who is fouled after beginning a shot attempt and in continuous motion could earn a T for continuing with the shot! :eek: :p

Also, what if they pass it to the farther official because they don't see the nearer official or don't pull out their tape measure to verify who is closest? Is that a T too? :eek: :p ;);)


But seriously, now, I agree that sitting the ball on the floor is sufficient to earn the T.

This wasn't a gesture indicating she was upset?! The player left the ball in the corner initially. When asked to retrieve it the player walked back to the spot, picked up the ball, put the ball back on the floor, then kicked it to the official. She didn't kick it with the force to bend it like Beckham, but the intent of her actions was still the same: to show her displeasure with the official. No arms waving, jumping up and down or screaming necessary. The official even felt the disrespect. We'll never know, but I bet he didn't say "thank you" when she walked past.

And of course posts like this ( and your earlier ones to deecee) go such a long way towards keeping good young officials involved in the HS game. As you said, you don't give a darn what he thinks, and I would imagine that he doesn't give a darn what you think.

And as a couple others have already pointed out, there is no way you T a player every single time they fail to immediately give the ball to the nearest official after a whistle blows. No. Way.

I'm obviously on the fence on whether I'd call the T, but this isn't the standard situation where the player simply can't find the ref or forgets. The new L is clearly (it seems to me) and verbally asking her for the ball when she just plops it down in the corner of the court.

That's not typical, standard behavior in any situation. I've never seen it done. It's essentially the same as throwing it into the corner while the official stands 10 feet away asking for the ball.

Agreed. It's why I said this should have been a T as soon as she did that. She did it to either show displeasure or to show up the officials. Whack her, I say.

Once again I don't see any body language indicating frustration directed towards the refs any more than maybe they are just losing, or shes having a bad game or many other reasons. She might not have heard the ref, but when he did get her attention she just turned and went to the ball. In my experience there would have been a pause, or a shrug, or even a frustrated sigh and hands being thrown up. There isn't enough here, IMO, to say yes or no on the T.

There is enough here to warrant a, "please don't do that again" or "get us the ball next time instead of placing it on the court". but beyond that I'm not sold on a T. And I agree I have never seen this done, especially in such a calm manner, which is why I'm not sold on a T. In the case of throwing the ball in the corner, that's different and very obvious intent.

As others have said, the rule quoted by Nevada is not a fit-all and cannot be interpreted literally. But whether the player in question is aware of this rule or not, she is not allowed to tear it out of the book, wad it up, and throw it in the official's face, which is what happened here.

T

I quoted the rule to show that there is specific rules support for issuing a T in this case. Naturally, experienced officials know that it isn't adhered to literally, but it is certainly appropriate to invoke when a player is being a PITA, such as the one in the video.

It really bothers me when people advocate officials put up with crap from coaches and players. They make all kinds of excuses such as deecee has done in this thread. What I see is blatant disrespect. For someone who claims to be an official to accuse anyone who would penalize this behavior of being overly officious is stabbing fellow officials in the back. So many of us make a tremendous effort to earn respect that it sickens me to see some (deleted) preaching that an official would be in the wrong to uphold that standard.

I would most likely give a T here. But, if not, she probably picks up 2 fouls real quick.

I think you're picking nits. Deecee may have hedged, but Nevada seems to have accurately gauged his meaning, IMO.

Squeaky Wheel Gets The Grease ...
 

Not looking for anything extra, I'm just giving the knucklehead a little more than 10% of my attention (or what ever the average percentage of attention is per player in my primary coverage area). See my post title for some folksy wisdom.

Please ...
 

Technical foul. Can we close the thread now?

Go Get Him Nevadaref ...
 

That's not what I'm advocating, unless the fouls are real fouls. I'm not making up any fouls, but I'm not going to miss any either.

Was the act of deliberately placing the ball on the floor away from the official and walking away from it ever an automatic technical anywhere? I seem to remember reading this as a case or poe somewhere but do not see it in NFHS books I can find. I believe I saw this somewhere but can't find it. Since I can't find it I may just be wrong but was it ever in old NFHS books or college or even NBA?

As far as video being T worthy. Hopefully, I would T the player up for deliberately setting the ball down away from the referrees but if I told the player to go get me the ball and she kicked it in the way of the video then that act would be a T.

I don't think you'll find anything that says this act is an "automatic" T.

I didn't say I would make something up. but she does have my attention, and I would not pass on anything involving her.

"Even referees and officials can do a better job, Mano said.

Watch any college basketball game, and odds are you'll see a coach not only stalking the sideline but coming onto the floor to protest a call. That's a violation, Mano said, yet it's almost never called.

"We've softened too much by letting bad behavior go escaped," he said.

It may not seem like much. But add up all the little transgressions that have been overlooked or excused, and sports now has a big problem."
----------------------------------------------
The above quote was taken from this article spawned from the death of a soccer referee: AP News: Ref's death a consequence of lack of sportsmanship

This is the point and what anyone who doesn't issue a technical foul to this player is failing to understand. Be part of the solution, not part of the problem.
Help your fellow officials by insisting upon good sporting behavior and penalize those who don't display such.

Giving Ts is always going to be subjective. We all have differnet experience to handle situation. For all we know even in this video the officials might have dealt with that player later or not allowed her to get away with anything. And I bet if she got a T for that, then the next thing you would see a coach complain that the official was over stepping their bounds or making it about them.

It is great to take quotes from an article that do not really mean anything in an unrelated situations. But I do recall that when Bryce Harper was thrown out of a baseball game for a gesture during a ball and strikes dispute, I do recall the media ripping the umpire for "making it about him" or overstepping his authority. And by all accounts the actions of Harper have been considered inappropriate for probably close to a 100 years. But no, the umpire was ripped apart and those never umpired comment aobut how the umpire went "400 feet away" threw out a "star player" that everyone wanted to see. Now this is of course pro sports, but that attitude is not something we all have not dealt with in amateur sports too. And I know that if I had given a T to this player in the vidoe I know some people would claim it was not warranted or that I should have dealt with it another way.

Peace

I agree, I think the official did the right thing by asking her to get the ball and based on the lack of frustration you describe, I'm assuming the new lead asked nicely. I can see a soccer player using their foot to pass the ball to a ref, however, in basketball, I think it's common practice to pick the ball up and bounce, toss or hand it to the official. Kicking it kinda says, "here, you pick it up". That's where I'm sold.

I look at this play based on the 8 seconds of clip. Heck we don't even see the foul leading up to the play. I don't know if the foul was called on this player. I don't know if this player has been the model citizen all game or not. I dont' know if this same player is really being disrespectful or maybe doesn't know any better (and I can say in my experience in the women's game at the HS players you will get varsity girls who don't know basketball).

Based on all this uncertainty and what was shown on the clip I didn't think THIS was T worthy. Heck if this player was called for the foul and stormed out with the ball and did this then the circumstances change. But I think that unless a supervisor were to address this as either an automatic T either (a) at the placing of the ball on the floor or (b) at the kick (but more like a nudge) of the ball towards the official, I would not be so quick to jump on the T bandwagon here. I would also never get so worked up that my point of view wasn't shared or find the need to resort to more assumptions and name calling.

For the record when I said this could be potentially viewed as overly officious it's what it was. Potentially, it could also be potentially viewed as the right thing to do. The glass is half full and half empty in any discussion involving 2 points of views. My point of view was also supported by evidence, or lack thereof, in the video and 8 seconds of dead ball activity in a vacuum.

What would the consensus be if a TO were called and the player dropped the ball instead of giving it to the official? Do you chase the player down to get you the ball there too?

Dropped? No.
Purposefully placed it down well away from me while I'm clearly calling for the ball? Yes. It's just the same as bouncing it away from me. Best case for the player, they get the opportunity to fix the issue.

I'm sold now.

Two very different things.

Better situation to compare: timeout is called, and I call out to player "Hey 23, ball please!" and now she sets it down in the corner deliberately and walks away? I will more than likely T her (can't say definitely as it hasn't happened yet)

Again, the biggest thing to me in the OP is that the new L is calling for the ball, and she purposefully sets it down and walks away. That is absolutely a "F-ck you" action from that player.

I agree, but we don't know nor can we tell how loud he is asking (I have worked with quiet talkers) and it is clear she doesn't see him. Once she does notice she just turns and heads towards the ball. In my experience this is the calmest "showing up" an official I have ever seen. She just looks clueless from this clip and doesn't come off like its attitude laden. I mean its 8 seconds of video, I wish there was some context.

I get that...but sometimes context isn't needed to say "That ain't right"...that's what I (and others) am saying here.

And that is a fair assement of the video. But my experiece tells me that this was a rather disrespectful response. Now as I have said I probably would give a T but I could see myself as finding anotehr way. I worked with someone this year in a college game that told the guy "You better pick that ball up or I am giving you a T." The player went and got the ball and gave it to him. The official is a D1 guy (not that the player knew this) and I am sure he would have been supported by the supervisor. Context does matter, but who you work for and who you are might matter too.

Peace

Book, Chapter, And Verse ...
 

Then we're both on the same page. Just don't spread the word around. Most Forum members don't even like to be in the same thread as me.

("A man is known by the company he keeps.", The Ass and His Purchaser, Aesop's Fable)

Rut - Great point about who you work for.....most hs assigners I would think don't want a T on this play. however I bet you over 90% of small college basketball officials working this game would call a T and 100% of D1 officials.

Some of the context of this situation is discernible: 2nd half of the ballgame; player heads towards her bench. So, she probably has 2 or more fouls and knew she would sit, due to this foul call and her coach's philosophy. The official, if he thought to T her for her actions, knew it would further affect her playing, and might incite her coach to complain about being too strict. And thinking that she was going to sit, anyway, he may have thought to not T her, but just comment to her as she passed by him.
I work for an assignor who would definitely consider a T in this situation to be excessive, unfortunately.

This may surprise some here but I don't make calls bf on you're I think a player or coach would feel or react. I also don't care of a player's foul count when making a call.

Sad.

Anyone have a clue how to decipher this?

Can you please re-word that first sentence?

Doh, that teaches me to post while mobile. I meant to say I don't care on what they may say or feel when making a call