Ball goes through bottom of hoop

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Not true, JR. The play we're talking about is the following:

If the ball gets stuck before passing all the way through, why would it be dead? It's still a live ball within the basket. If somebody touches it, it's gotta be BI. No?

Upon further review....

Chuck,this is what we are talking about. You are saying that if you touch a live ball within the basket while it's on the way up,but before it went through,you and Nevada would call BI. I'm telling you that if you're gonna call the language literally,the same definition for BI also includes touching a ball that is touching the basket. The net and ring are part of the basket also,by definition. Therefore,using your application of the rule,it also HAS to be BI if a player touches the ball while the ball is touching the net or rim,even if the ball is on the way up or being passed underneath the ring.Do you still agree with that?

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Therefore,using your application of the rule,it also HAS to be BI if a player touches the ball while the ball is touching the net or rim,even if the ball is on the way up or being passed underneath the ring.Do you still agree with that?

As I've previously admitted, I neglected to bring my rulebooks to Florida with me, so I can't look at the actual wording. But doesn't the rule say "within" the basket or "on" the ring?

If the rule says "touching the basket", then your scenario would be technically BI, and I admit that I would have a very hard time calling it if the ball were merely touching the outside edge of the ring.

[w_sohl]

Just call it when it goes through the ring from the bottom. Don't look for boogers, there is one on each side of the table that will find you on their own without your help.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

As I've previously admitted, I neglected to bring my rulebooks to Florida with me, so I can't look at the actual wording. But doesn't the rule say "within" the basket or "on" the ring?

If the rule says "touching the basket", then your scenario would be technically BI, and I admit that I would have a very hard time calling it if the ball were merely touching the outside edge of the ring.

Rule 4-5-1--"Basket interference occurs when a player touches the ball or any part of the basket while the ball is on or within the basket". Note that it says "on the basket",not "on top of the basket".Note that it also says "within the basket",but it doesn't say whether it got "within" from the top or the bottom. Also,note the definition of "basket"- R1-10-1--"Each basket shall consist of a single metal ring...and a white cord 12-mesh net suspended from beneath the ring".

T'aint my scenario.It's your's and Nevada's. The language fits. Now,are you gonna call BI if the ball is going up,is within the mesh going up,and hasn't gone through the ring yet,and someone now touches it?.Are you also gonna call BI if someone touches the ball while it is on the way up and the ball happens to be touching,or "on" the mesh or the ring. By strict definition of the rule,you should.I won't! That's not the purpose or intent of the BI rule.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Rule 4-5-1--"Basket interference occurs when a player touches the ball or any part of the basket while the ball is on or within the basket". Note that it says "on the basket",not "on top of the basket".

Doesn't "on" mean "on top"? If it's touching the side of the rim, it's not on the basket, is it?

Now,are you gonna call BI if the ball is going up,is within the mesh going up,and hasn't gone through the ring yet,and someone now touches it?.

Yes.

Are you also gonna call BI if someone touches the ball while it is on the way up and the ball happens to be touching,or "on" the mesh or the ring.

No, b/c touching the net is not the same as being on the basket. Just my opinion.

Chuck

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

1)Doesn't "on" mean "on top"? If it's touching the side of the rim, it's not on the basket, is it?

2)

Now,are you gonna call BI if the ball is going up,is within the mesh going up,and hasn't gone through the ring yet,and someone now touches it?.

Yes.

3)

Are you also gonna call BI if someone touches the ball while it is on the way up and the ball happens to be touching,or "on" the mesh or the ring.

No, b/c touching the net is not the same as being on the basket. Just my opinion.

[/B][/QUOTE]1)Nope,"on" means "on". It means "against". If it's ON the side of the rim,it's ON the rim. If it's ON the bottom of the rim,it's ON the rim. I'm using the literal translation. As in "on the mesh" also! See #3 too.The rule says "on the basket".By definition,the mesh is part of the basket.How can you NOT call BI now in #3,using your own logic and the strict meaning of the words?

2)I wanna be there when you call BI in #2.Maybe in a case where the top of the ball is still below the ring,but the ball is entirely in the mesh going up when it is touched.Hopefully,it'll be a D1 game and Texas Tech is playing-and you call the BI on Texas Tech.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jul 30th, 2003 at 03:33 PM]

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

1)Doesn't "on" mean "on top"? If it's touching the side of the rim, it's not on the basket, is it?

1)Nope,"on" means "on". It means "against". If it's ON the side of the rim,it's ON the rim. If it's ON the bottom of the rim,it's ON the rim. I'm using the literal translation. As in "on the mesh" also! See #3 too.The rule says "on the basket".By definition,the mesh is part of the basket.How can you NOT call BI now in #3,using your own logic and the strict meaning of the words?

Wrong.

There's a specific case (I hope -- or else I'm remembering incorrectly) where the ball is against the side of the basket ring and is touched -- ruling: not BI.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

Wrong.

There's a specific case (I hope -- or else I'm remembering incorrectly) where the ball is against the side of the basket ring and is touched -- ruling: not BI.

Casebook play 9-11SitB.

Casebook 9-11 and 9-12 COMMENT also says "Other acts in 9-11,called "basket interference" apply during either a free throw,a try or tap for field goal,or whenever the ball is on,in or above the basket".What Chuck and Nevada are talking about certainly can't be called a free throw,a try or tap for field goal,or the ball being on or above the basket.None of that is applicable.That leaves a literal interpretation of "in the basket"-with the mesh hanging down being defined in the rulebook as being part of the basket.What they are trying to say is that you CAN call BI on a ball going up IF it is touched while it is IN the basket-meaning the mesh part of the basket-but before the ball goes completely above the rim so that a violation occurs. I disagree.

[Mark Dexter]

I'm thinking . . . . . no!



A ball entering from below and getting swatted around counts as "entering and passing through" for my purposes - call it dead; don't even bother thinking about the BI.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

1)Doesn't "on" mean "on top"? If it's touching the side of the rim, it's not on the basket, is it?

2)

Yes.

3)

No, b/c touching the net is not the same as being on the basket. Just my opinion.

1)Nope,"on" means "on". It means "against". If it's ON the side of the rim,it's ON the rim. If it's ON the bottom of the rim,it's ON the rim. I'm using the literal translation. As in "on the mesh" also! See #3 too.The rule says "on the basket".By definition,the mesh is part of the basket.How can you NOT call BI now in #3,using your own logic and the strict meaning of the words?

2)I wanna be there when you call BI in #2.Maybe in a case where the top of the ball is still below the ring,but the ball is entirely in the mesh going up when it is touched.Hopefully,it'll be a D1 game and Texas Tech is playing-and you call the BI on Texas Tech.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jul 30th, 2003 at 03:33 PM] [/B][/QUOTE]

Yes, JR, by rule they are all BI. Will I call all of them? Doubt it. On this forum we sometimes debate what the rules are, sometimes how they are written, and sometimes how they should be called. I think in this thread we have mixed all three.
I will ignore the one where the pass below the rim hits the net and a player hits the ball at the same time. My story will be that he hit the ball after it stopped touching the net and I'm sticking with it.

[cmathews]

["1)Nope,"on" means "on". It means "against". If it's ON the side of the rim,it's ON the rim. If it's ON the bottom of the rim,it's ON the rim. I'm using the literal translation. "]

case book pg 69 9.11 situation B. The ball is touching the side of A's basket when B1 contacts the net with his hand. The ball is definitely not touching the top of the ring...the ruling says this is not a violation....so no the side is not "on the ring.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by cmathews

case book pg 69 9.11 situation B.

[/B]

If you check above,I think that you will find that I cited the casebook play above,oh,about 23 hours ago- yesterday afternoon.I was always aware of it.

[ChuckElias]

JR, I honestly think that you're not using "on" correctly. "On" does not mean "touching". If B1 is leaning against A1 in the low post, no one in his right mind would say that B1 is literally on A1. "On" means "on top of". I'm pretty sure I'm standing by my original answers.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
I'm pretty sure I'm standing by my original answers.

To clarify,a loose ball is knocked straight up in the air under the basket,.It completely enters the mesh,but doesn't go above the ring.While the ball is inside the mesh,a player touches either the mesh,ball or ring.You would call BI in all 3 cases.

Correct?

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

To clarify,a loose ball is knocked straight up in the air under the basket,.It completely enters the mesh,but doesn't go above the ring.While the ball is inside the mesh,a player touches either the mesh,ball or ring.You would call BI in all 3 cases.

Correct?

JR, I'll stand up and say that yes, I will call BI on all three of those.
Now, by what is written in the rules book I think that the ball on the side of the rim is also BI if it or the basket is touched. However, the case book has corrected this, and therefore, I will go with the case book clarification in that case. It seems that we really need a case book clarification for this play that you have posted.