Unsportsmanlike conduct?

[jdccpa]

Summer league 6,7 & 8 Boys, Red team employed a full court press the entire first half. Red team up by 20 at the half. Red team continued to press the entire 3 and 4th quarters, with the Red coach yelling "Press, press" during every Blue team possession. Red team proceeded to build the lead to 30 points. Red team also heaving up 3 pointers at every opportunity, even lauched one at the end of the 3rd period.

I wanted to call a "T" so bad but didn't. Should I have called a "T"?

[Mregor]

On who and for what? I'd make a comment to the coach suggesting that maybe he could consider calling off the press, but that's all you can do. That is a matter for the league/t-ment director to handle. It's enough to enforce the 10 rules of basketball, don't extend that to other moral situations.

Mregor

[LSams]

One of my favorite stories in a similar situation goes as follows:

Team A pressing, up something like 25-1 in the first quarter. Team B literally cannot get the ball past half-court, and having seen the team earlier in the season, I knew that it would only get worse. A-1 sets up in pretty good position to take a charge, right in front of Team A's bench. We have a craseh, I call a "game management" block.

Team A's coach says to me "didn't she have position?"

To which I replied "not in this game coach."

He responded with something like, "I gottcha" and pulled his team out of the press immediately for the rest of the game which he still won by 40+ points. It was nice to see some of that level of sportsmanship and understanding of what I was trying to do from a good coach.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by LSams
One of my favorite stories in a similar situation goes as follows:

Team A pressing, up something like 25-1 in the first quarter. Team B literally cannot get the ball past half-court, and having seen the team earlier in the season, I knew that it would only get worse. A-1 sets up in pretty good position to take a charge, right in front of Team A's bench. We have a craseh, I call a "game management" block.

Team A's coach says to me "didn't she have position?"

To which I replied "not in this game coach."

He responded with something like, "I gottcha" and pulled his team out of the press immediately for the rest of the game which he still won by 40+ points. It was nice to see some of that level of sportsmanship and understanding of what I was trying to do from a good coach.

It's not by the book, but hey, whatever works. The one comment I made that got a coach to pull a press, the comment was, "Coach, some people might consider leaving the press on with a 30 point lead, over-compensation." Don't worry, Howard, it wasn't a PBOA game). I don't think I'll ever ever say it again, but that once, it worked.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by rainmaker

It's not by the book, but hey, whatever works. The one comment I made that got a coach to pull a press, the comment was, "Coach, some people might consider leaving the press on with a 30 point lead, over-compensation." Don't worry, Howard, it wasn't a PBOA game). I don't think I'll ever ever say it again, but that once, it worked.

Remind me again why you would ask a coach - directly or indirectly - to take off a press during a blowout.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by LSams
One of my favorite stories in a similar situation goes as follows:

Team A pressing, up something like 25-1 in the first quarter. Team B literally cannot get the ball past half-court, and having seen the team earlier in the season, I knew that it would only get worse. A-1 sets up in pretty good position to take a charge, right in front of Team A's bench. We have a craseh, I call a "game management" block.

Team A's coach says to me "didn't she have position?"

To which I replied "not in this game coach."

He responded with something like, "I gottcha" and pulled his team out of the press immediately for the rest of the game which he still won by 40+ points. It was nice to see some of that level of sportsmanship and understanding of what I was trying to do from a good coach.

But what are you gonna do if the coach questions you as to why you aren't following the rule book? You have just admitted to him that your call was wrong,by rule--which it certainly was.You happened to run into a reasonable coach in your particular case,but what if he hadn't have been so reasonable? If you have to subsequently T that coach up,or even have to toss him if he really keeps complaining,how are you gonna justify your actions later.You're also penalizing a defensive player who has done absolutely nothing wrong.

JMO,but I don't like to inject myself into these cases.I may call the borderline fouls closer against the better team,but I'm never gonna deliberately make a wrong call.I don't like penalizing players just 'cause their coach is a jerk.If I'm gonna tell someone how to coach their team,it's also tough not to give them the same opportunity to tell me how to referee their game-and I ain't ever gonna let them do that. Again,just my own personal opinion.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
Remind me again why you would ask a coach - directly or indirectly - to take off a press during a blowout.

Note that I didn't tell him, or even ask him, to take it off. I didn't even suggest it. Just pointing out a basic fact.

It was a rec league game, where the team that was ahead had convinced the "management" to take away a no-press-after-20-points-rule just for that one day. It was normally in effect. He'd been complaining about every little no-call, and whining the whole game. I frankly lost my temper, and I'll never do it again, but that one time...

you know, now that I think about it, I've reffed this coach's team a number of times since then, and he's never said a word about anything. Hm...

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by rainmaker

Note that I didn't tell him, or even ask him, to take it off. I didn't even suggest it. Just pointing out a basic fact.

It was a rec league game, where the team that was ahead had convinced the "management" to take away a no-press-after-20-points-rule just for that one day. It was normally in effect. He'd been complaining about every little no-call, and whining the whole game. I frankly lost my temper, and I'll never do it again, but that one time...

you know, now that I think about it, I've reffed this coach's team a number of times since then, and he's never said a word about anything. Hm...

The guy sounds like a grade A prime jerk.

BTW, it occurs to me your new sig quote & my sig quote convey the same message.

[TriggerMN]

I'm with Jurassic on this one. Regardless of the situation, I would never make a flat-out wrong call on purpose.

My own personal rule is that I never, NEVER, tell a coach how to coach a game. No official should ever let a coach tell them how to officiate. It works both ways.

In this situation, a 6th or 7th grade game or whatever, if it is that obvious that he's running up the score by 50 points or purposely making the other team look bad, I'd do just as Jurassic mentioned...on that press, every time there's any contact at all, call a foul on the defense. When the other team start shooting the bonus 2 minutes into the 3rd quarter, the coach will get the message real quick, and you haven't "told him" how to coach.

In high school or above, however, I'd never do this. That's a level of ball that's high enough for the official never to "manage" the game.

[Hawks Coach]

We have come back from 17 down and 19 down in a matter of 8 minutes. In the game where we were 17 down, opponent pulled their press with 8 to play and we went on a 20-2 run. Who is to say what lead is the "too big" and thus justify calling off the press by rule.

In rec leagues, where you have kids who aren't really basketball players trying to play basketball, I can see the point of rules regarding presses and when to pull out of them. At any other level, you are playing a competitive game with the end object being to win - gotta let teams play the way they believe they need to play.

[devdog69]

While I see your point HawksCoach, there are times when we absolutely know for a fact that one team is far outmatched. I will never say anything to a coach suggesting he back off, but my whistle will. Once we get halfway or so through the second half, I will take the approach that contact which causes a disadvantage is a foul, you're pressing players are contacting the offense and they are losing the ball, hence I have a foul. And another, and another, and so on, until you back them off. In my book, this allows the far weaker team some chance to play a little basketball, keeps them from being totally humiliated and frustrated and I have not found many coaches intolerant of that approach.

[Mark Padgett]

Guys - I have to disagree with the theory of inventing calls to make against the team that's way ahead and still pressing (or whatever). First of all, it's the coach that's making those decisions, not the players. By making foul calls you would not ordinarily make, this hurts the players on whom you are making the calls - not because they may pick up some fouls in this game, but because you are eroding their knowledge of how they may be allowed to play defense. If you were a young player and all of a sudden a normal defensive move was called a foul, what would you think? You'd either think the ref is inconsistent (or nuts) or that you really are not allowed to play defense that way. This is just a wrong thing to do to the players.

The players are not going to get your hints about what defense they should or should not (in your opinion) be playing. They are going to play the way their coach tells them to play.

Penalizing players for what you perceive is poor sportsmanship on the part of a coach is just plain wrong.

[rainmaker]

I agree with Padgett -- I'd rather insult the guy's masculinity. Can't believe i said that.

If you've been calling it tight right from the beginning, you don't have to make it up later. Call it in the beginning the way you want to call it in the last two minutes. Call it the last two minutes the way you did the whole game. If you need to "crack down", you can justify by saying that the team was getting sloppy (if they're way ahead) or that they're getting tense (if it's a close game), as long as it's not a big change from what you were calling in the beginning. I'm assuming no one is cracking down on the team that's 40 points behind, unless they're hacking and slashing.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Mark Padgett
Guys - I have to disagree with the theory of inventing calls to make against the team that's way ahead and still pressing (or whatever). First of all, it's the coach that's making those decisions, not the players. By making foul calls you would not ordinarily make, this hurts the players on whom you are making the calls - not because they may pick up some fouls in this game, but because you are eroding their knowledge of how they may be allowed to play defense. If you were a young player and all of a sudden a normal defensive move was called a foul, what would you think? You'd either think the ref is inconsistent (or nuts) or that you really are not allowed to play defense that way. This is just a wrong thing to do to the players.

The players are not going to get your hints about what defense they should or should not (in your opinion) be playing. They are going to play the way their coach tells them to play.

Penalizing players for what you perceive is poor sportsmanship on the part of a coach is just plain wrong.

What he said

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Dan_ref


BTW, it occurs to me your new sig quote & my sig quote convey the same message.

...just "translated" for cultural relevance!