Ohio St vs. Iowa St video request.

[NewYorker]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Well you do realize that playing the game means nothing when it comes to rules knowledge. I teach a class for newer officials in my area and the most common statement that someone makes when they come into officiating (and many played), they did not realize how little of the rules they knew before they officiated.

I never claimed to have more knowledge, I am only trying to understand why that call was a charge. I did not realize this board was for officials, I thought it was for complaining about officiating or controversial calls and a place for debating it. Maybe a sticky or something here would help keep non-officials like myself out.

Well that is wonderful that you think the rules need to be changed, but it is usually the public or coaches and players that often do not know the rules. And not sure how the play in question had someone undercut. The rules are to be balanced and the RA was to help eliminate contact near or under the basket. But just like anything the offense has options. This player could have taken a jumper or done something else with the ball. So how far do you take the rule. And in my entire career this rule has not change other than the RA which only applies to the NCAA and NBA levels. If you do not want contact in the game, go play chess. Otherwise it is your responsibility as an offensive player to add other weapons to your game. They are not going to take away defensive play no matter what you or I think honestly.

Peace

I have no problem with contact. I do have problem with rewarding a defensive player for running up right under an offensive players path just as he is jumping. There was no way he could avoid the contact. Take jumpers? IS that what you want the game to be? I think that should be a blocking foul - forget about the rules for a second. That's the whole point of the restricted area - to prevent guys from running into the path of a guy that close to the basket when the offensive player is going to be committed to being airborne. I think thats the NBA does call it differently (I know you may debate this).

I think they will change it. You don't want guys colliding when one is jumping high into the air. Contact is one thing, but an offensive player is very vulnerable and I have seen some unpleasant injuries from a guy trying to take charges near the basket.

[APG]

Originally Posted by NewYorker

I have no problem with contact. I do have problem with rewarding a defensive player for running up right under an offensive players path just as he is jumping. There was no way he could avoid the contact. Take jumpers? IS that what you want the game to be? I think that should be a blocking foul - forget about the rules for a second. That's the whole point of the restricted area - to prevent guys from running into the path of a guy that close to the basket when the offensive player is going to be committed to being airborne. I think thats the NBA does call it differently (I know you may debate this).

I think they will change it. You don't want guys colliding when one is jumping high into the air. Contact is one thing, but an offensive player is very vulnerable and I have seen some unpleasant injuries from a guy trying to take charges near the basket.

First off, there's no problem with you posting here even if you don't officiate. It's just the presumption seeing as...well this is a board for sports officials and related topics. Keep respectful and you'll be just fine.

The NBA does call this different because the rule is different.

Under NFHS (high school) and NCAA rules, a defender is late if he gets his position after the defender is airborne. In the NBA, a defender is late if he gets his position after the offensive player has started his upward motion with the ball. Even with the defender being required to be there half a beat earlier, fans and commentators still scream about "defenders running under players" or changing to rule to whatever even on bang bang players that are correctly called charges. And the same arguments that you're saying right here are still brought up by commentators in NBA games.

[NewYorker]

Originally Posted by APG

First off, there's no problem with you posting here even if you don't officiate. It's just the presumption seeing as...well this is a board for sports officials and related topics. Keep respectful and you'll be just fine.

The NBA does call this different because the rule is different.

Under NFHS (high school) and NCAA rules, a defender is late if he gets his position after the defender is airborne. In the NBA, a defender is late if he gets his position after the offensive player has started his upward motion with the ball. Even with the defender being required to be there half a beat earlier, fans and commentators still scream about "defenders running under players" or changing to rule to whatever even on bang bang players that are correctly called charges. And the same arguments that you're saying right here are still brought up by commentators in NBA games.

Thanks for the clarification.

Originally Posted by NewYorker

I never claimed to have more knowledge, I am only trying to understand why that call was a charge. I did not realize this board was for officials, I thought it was for complaining about officiating or controversial calls and a place for debating it. Maybe a sticky or something here would help keep non-officials like myself out.

When you said "the rules say this...." even though the rules do not read that way, you were kinda claiming to have more knowledge.

However, I do see your point. The officials who responded to you actually agreed with you that it is a block....but they kept pointing out that the reasons you were giving were not valid ones (time/distance not given, moving the foot, being "set", etc.). For these guys, the process is as important as the final call.

It would have helped you if JRut had posted the rule covering the situation that we were talking about, which confused both you and me. He posted the rule about off-ball defenders getting LGP, which has little to do with the Craft play.

I have heard of boards where all they do is complain about officiating (and pretty much everything else) -- they are called fan forums.

I hope you stay here and get to learn!

[NewYorker]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

When you said "the rules say this...." even though the rules do not read that way, you were kinda claiming to have more knowledge.

However, I do see your point. The officials who responded to you actually agreed with you that it is a block....but they kept pointing out that the reasons you were giving were not valid ones (time/distance not given, moving the foot, being "set", etc.). For these guys, the process is as important as the final call.

It would have helped you if JRut had posted the rule covering the situation that we were talking about, which confused both you and me. He posted the rule about off-ball defenders getting LGP, which has little to do with the Craft play.

I have heard of boards where all they do is complain about officiating (and pretty much everything else) -- they are called fan forums.

I hope you stay here and get to learn!

Yeah well I guess I am more of a fan than anything truth be told

I'm glad to better understand the rule. My intent wasn't to act more knowledgable but rather get people to explain why I it didn't make sense to me.

It's still weird. As a player I would have never thought this. There are many times that I have picked up my dribble in full stride towards the basket and someone has step in front. In one particular instance, I was driving hard to the basket baseline and was going in for a dunk. A shorter defender slide in (there was no restricted area back then but if there was, they'd definitely have been out of it). If I recall correctly, they where square with me, had their feet on the ground, and there before I was airborne. I couldn't avoid the collision. By the time I processed mentally that there was someone in front of me, I was already in the act of exploding up off one leg and my momentum just took me into them. I tried to avoid it but all i could do was turn my side into them. He took the worst of it but i definitely remember landing hard on my back. It was called a blocking foul. But by these rules, it should have been a charge. And it's just hard to get my head wrapped that.

[jTheUmp]

Originally Posted by NewYorker

It's still weird. As a player I would have never thought this. There are many times that I have picked up my dribble in full stride towards the basket and someone has step in front. In one particular instance, I was driving hard to the basket baseline and was going in for a dunk. A shorter defender slide in (there was no restricted area back then but if there was, they'd definitely have been out of it). If I recall correctly, they where square with me, had their feet on the ground, and there before I was airborne. I couldn't avoid the collision. By the time I processed mentally that there was someone in front of me, I was already in the act of exploding up off one leg and my momentum just took me into them. I tried to avoid it but all i could do was turn my side into them. He took the worst of it but i definitely remember landing hard on my back. It was called a blocking foul. But by these rules, it should have been a charge. And it's just hard to get my head wrapped that.

Yeah, that could've been a charge on your part. It could've also been a blocking foul (if the defender was moving forward at the time of the contact, or if one of his feet wasn't on the floor before you went airborne).

As a player, you're going to see things differently than the officials see them.

That's why the officials get paid the mediocre bucks.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

Yeah, that could've been a charge on your part. It could've also been a blocking foul (if the defender was moving forward at the time of the contact, or if one of his feet wasn't on the floor before you went airborne).

As a player, you're going to see things differently than the officials see them.

That's why the officials get paid the mediocre bucks.

Or, the official could have kicked it. As we've seen from the plays Adams put out earlier this year, it does happen.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by NewYorker

I never claimed to have more knowledge, I am only trying to understand why that call was a charge. I did not realize this board was for officials, I thought it was for complaining about officiating or controversial calls and a place for debating it. Maybe a sticky or something here would help keep non-officials like myself out.

Actually you did claim to have knowledge of the subject. Maybe not more knowledge as I would have no other way to make that determination other than what you are stating on this topic.

And yes this a board of sports officials and primarily those that work the sport in which you posted this topic.

And we have had many non-officials over the years, nothing wrong with posting. But you are not debating these issues with people that do not have access to the actual books these games are governed by.

Originally Posted by NewYorker

I have no problem with contact. I do have problem with rewarding a defensive player for running up right under an offensive players path just as he is jumping. There was no way he could avoid the contact. Take jumpers? IS that what you want the game to be? I think that should be a blocking foul - forget about the rules for a second. That's the whole point of the restricted area - to prevent guys from running into the path of a guy that close to the basket when the offensive player is going to be committed to being airborne. I think thats the NBA does call it differently (I know you may debate this).

I want the game to reward good defense. I want the game to reward a player that can do different things. I think there should be a balance between the two. And yes the RA is to prevent guys from constantly running into people under the basket, but it also says to the offense you have only a small area to get that consideration. Otherwise you need to not run willy-nilly into anyone just because they are in your way, just like other parts of the court. And that is great that the NBA calls it differently, but that does not necessarily influence what other levels do. The NBA has a different athlete that has been playing the game for a longer time and the public that is watching is paying more money. High School or NCAA are dealing with players that may never play above their level. Who cares about all of that, that is the case in every single sport where the pros have a different rules than the lower amateur levels.

Originally Posted by NewYorker

I think they will change it. You don't want guys colliding when one is jumping high into the air. Contact is one thing, but an offensive player is very vulnerable and I have seen some unpleasant injuries from a guy trying to take charges near the basket.

If they were going to change this, they would have done so a long time ago. These plays happen all the time and nothing has change for years. It has been the same basic rule since I started almost 20 years ago. The only thing that changed was the NCAA rule on the RA. They are not going to take away defense or the ability to play it if an offensive player cannot make another type of play. Actually you are the only person I have ever heard complain about this part of the game and one of the reasons nothing in this area will change.

Peace