Gonzaga / Southern video (Added)

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by dahoopref

El Cóndor Pasa, as sung by Simon and Garfunkel?

[Raymond]

I'm getting of people saying the Trail WAVED OFF the lead. He stopped the Lead from finishing his preliminary and took the call. I took a call from my partner last might even though we had the same call. I took it bc it was mine to make.

[zebraman]

Seems to me this thread has now split into three separate debates.

1) Were two preliminary signals given? I'm would argue that the lead stopped soon enough (since he never lowered his fists to his hips) that he avoided the dreaded blarge. Not sure if John Adams would agree with me or not.

2) Did the trail overstep his bounds by halting the lead from blarging? I'd say no...... blarges are the worst possible outcome. I think the lead had a better look, but I'd rather have the wrong official take a double whistle than to report the double foul.

3) Was the lead going to signal a block? Oh heck yes..... he was halfway through his block dance. It's completely obvious. He just didn't finish. He was definitely calling a block and the trail knew it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by zebraman

Seems to me this thread has now split into three separate debates.

1) Were two preliminary signals given? I'm would argue that the lead stopped soon enough (since he never lowered his fists to his hips) that he avoided the dreaded blarge. Not sure if John Adams would agree with me or not.

2) Did the trail overstep his bounds by halting the lead from blarging? I'd say no...... blarges are the worst possible outcome. I think the lead had a better look, but I'd rather have the wrong official take a double whistle than to report the double foul.

3) Was the lead going to signal a block? Oh heck yes..... he was halfway through his block dance. It's completely obvious. He just didn't finish. He was definitely calling a block and the trail knew it.

Agree with everything stated.

Peace

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I'm getting of people saying the Trail WAVED OFF the lead. He stopped the Lead from finishing his preliminary and took the call. I took a call from my partner last might even though we had the same call. I took it bc it was mine to make.

So he gave a preliminary and didn't finish? Partners take calls all the time but I would wager the majority are violation or fouls, not block/charge.
I guess it boils down to what constitutes a prelim signal. L had a whistle and was coming out with a block. To think he was coming out with anything other than is a huge stretch. possible? yes probable? no. It's why the T give him the double handed wave/stop sign. HE knew what the signal was.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Judtech

So he gave a preliminary and didn't finish? Partners take calls all the time but I would wager the majority are violation or fouls, not block/charge.
I guess it boils down to what constitutes a prelim signal. L had a whistle and was coming out with a block. To think he was coming out with anything other than is a huge stretch. possible? yes probable? no. It's why the T give him the double handed wave/stop sign. HE knew what the signal was.

So if an official raises their arms you consider that a signal for a foul? I am not trying to be sarcastic or factious in asking this, but since when did that become one signal over another? Even if we "know" what he was going to call, not sure how that automatically constitutes that call. I have said before I used to raise both my arms to signal a PC foul and know others that do when they feel they have to sell one of these calls. Now we have to assume what we know the signal was as the standard? I hope then when someone comes running off the end line we know they are calling a PC foul too? Or watch Joey Crawford.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Obvious? Again Camron, we deal in definitions. There is no definitions that says a signal is made just because it looks like it is going to be a certain signal. And you are not in a position to say either way. All you are saying is your opinion and considering that many here do not always agree with your opinion, then it is nice you gave one, but not official. I am sure the officials in this game or their evaluator is not like, "You know that guy Camron on that website made some sense." I doubt anyone really even knows you or I have had this conversations and couldn't care less what we think either.

Peace

Think about it. If he didn't really "show" an indication of what he had we really wouldn't even be having this discussion as there would be nothing to discuss. The fact is that he revealed what he had. It isn't an opinion.

Do you really, honestly think he was going to a charge??? Have you EVER seen anyone at that level signal a charge that way? There are two possibilities here....you answer no or you lie.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by zebraman

Seems to me this thread has now split into three separate debates.

3) Was the lead going to signal a block? Oh heck yes..... he was halfway through his block dance. It's completely obvious. He just didn't finish. He was definitely calling a block and the trail knew it.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Agree with everything stated.

Peace

That, my friends, IS showing what you have. He showed enough to reveal his call and the trail and everyone else knows it. Discussion over by Rut's agreement.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Discussion over by Rut's agreement.

Wouldn't bet the farm on that.

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

So if an official raises their arms you consider that a signal for a foul? I am not trying to be sarcastic or factious in asking this, but since when did that become one signal over another? Even if we "know" what he was going to call, not sure how that automatically constitutes that call. I have said before I used to raise both my arms to signal a PC foul and know others that do when they feel they have to sell one of these calls. Now we have to assume what we know the signal was as the standard? I hope then when someone comes running off the end line we know they are calling a PC foul too? Or watch Joey Crawford.

Peace

Every time? Nope. This case? Yes.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

That, my friends, IS showing what you have. He showed enough to reveal his call and the trail and everyone else knows it. Discussion over by Rut's agreement.

I am agreeing with Z, not you. You said that we have to go with a blarge because of the motion of the Lead. Z did not say that, but it is clear to me what he was likely to call form the Lead position, but does not apply to the rule or interpretation unless you have some evidence otherwise. And you have not shown any evidence that the only thing that can be considered here is a blarge.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Judtech

Every time? Nope. This case? Yes.

Show me the rule that supports your position? Have fun looking for that reference OK.

Peace

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Show me the rule that supports your position? Have fun looking for that reference OK.

Peace

Show me the rule supporting your position? I may have missed the 'When a preliminary is really a preliminary' section.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Judtech

Show me the rule supporting your position? I may have missed the 'When a preliminary is really a preliminary' section.

We have already given the rule many times and the casebook is very clear in the NF books. And there is absolutely no position or interpretation at the NF level that suggest any gesture or movement that looks like a signal is considered block or a charge. We have actually discussed this so much on this site if you do a search you will find all the references. Honestly I am not trying to prove anything to you, you do what makes you happy. I just know what I am going to do or consider a signal.

Peace

[Judtech]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

We have already given the rule many times and the casebook is very clear in the NF books. And there is absolutely no position or interpretation at the NF level that suggest any gesture or movement that looks like a signal is considered block or a charge. We have actually discussed this so much on this site if you do a search you will find all the references. Honestly I am not trying to prove anything to you, you do what makes you happy. I just know what I am going to do or consider a signal.

Peace

I try to do what makes my Supervisor happy!