illegal dribble?

[onetime1]

With 5:15 left to go in the 2nd half of the Michigan SD St game a player #34 from SD St with the ball jumps in the air and realizes his shot is going to be blocked. He lets the ball fall to his side and does not touch it while it remains bouncing he is called for an illegal dribble. Is this the correct call? Maybe somebody has the video.

[Camron Rust]

Technically, yes. The dribble starts the moment it is released. If it is a dribble, it is a violation at that moment.

However, in practice, until someone again touches it, you can't know if it was a pass (touched by a different player) or a dribble (touched by the same player). Once the same player touches it again, it confirms that it was a dribble but the violation actually occurred when the ball was released.

[just another ref]

Actually what it would be is a travel, for releasing the ball to begin a dribble after lifting the pivot foot.

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Technically, yes. The dribble starts the moment it is released. If it is a dribble, it is a violation at that moment.

However, in practice, until someone again touches it, you can't know if it was a pass (touched by a different player) or a dribble (touched by the same player). Once the same player touches it again, it confirms that it was a dribble but the violation actually occurred when the ball was released.

I respectfully disagree. By definition, batting or pushing the ball to the floor could be either a dribble or a pass. The continuing action determines if it's a dribble or pass. If the player does not touch it again (in other words another player is the next to touch), it's a pass.

-Josh

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by jdmara

I respectfully disagree. By definition, batting or pushing the ball to the floor could be either a dribble or a pass. The continuing action determines if it's a dribble or pass. If the player does not touch it again (in other words another player is the next to touch), it's a pass.

-Josh

It's a judgment call. A pass, by definition, is "to another player."

If a player drops the ball straight to the floor, another player is not involved. Therefore, in my judgment, this is not a pass. By default, it becomes a dribble, which, in this case, is a violation.

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by just another ref

It's a judgment call. A pass, by definition, is "to another player."

If a player drops the ball straight to the floor, another player is not involved. Therefore, in my judgment, this is not a pass. By default, it becomes a dribble, which, in this case, is a violation.

I understand that stance and I'm not saying that it's wrong. After the offense elevates and releases the ball, they are essentially at a disadvantage because only 4 of their players may touch the ball. I believe we, as officials, neutralize a defensive advantage they have earned by playing good defense. Any thoughts?

-Josh

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by jdmara

I understand that stance and I'm not saying that it's wrong. After the offense elevates and releases the ball, they are essentially at a disadvantage because only 4 of their players may touch the ball. I believe we, as officials, neutralize a defensive advantage they have earned by playing good defense. Any thoughts?

-Josh

Actually, if you're asking me, none of their players may touch the ball because it is now dead.

This official calls the violation which was created by the good defense.

[HawkeyeCubP]

This was a question in the IAABO test this year. I answered violation initially, but was persuaded otherwise by the answer key.

[just another ref]

Answer keys are sometimes wrong.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by jdmara

I respectfully disagree. By definition, batting or pushing the ball to the floor could be either a dribble or a pass. The continuing action determines if it's a dribble or pass. If the player does not touch it again (in other words another player is the next to touch), it's a pass.

-Josh

You may disagree, but you'd be incorrect.

I didn't say that play was or was not a dribble...just that "a" dribble starts the moment it is released and if it was a dribble, it is a violation.

It is one or the other at the moment it is released. There is no other option...it isn't a fumble, it isn't an interrupted dribble, it isn't being held. It may not always be possible to tell what it is at that moment but that doesn't meant it isn't one or the other. The subsequent action only determines was it was all along...all the way back to the moment it was released. It doesn't magically become a pass/dribble when it is next touched, it just makes it clear.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Answer keys are sometimes wrong.

This one wasn't. The play is basically as follows:

"A1, in control of the ball, who has not used a dribble, jumps off both feet into the air, then drops/releases the ball to his/her side. The official rules a legal play. Is the official correct?"

The answer, despite what many of you are suggesting, is in fact "yes," which is what jdmara is suggesting could be the ruling depending on the situation. The reason the answer is yes is because it does depend on what else is happening on the court around A1. If, for example, A2 is nearby and comes over and grabs the ball before or after a bounce or two, it wasn't the start of a dribble.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP

This one wasn't. The play is basically as follows:

"A1, in control of the ball, who has not used a dribble, jumps off both feet into the air, then drops/releases the ball to his/her side. The official rules a legal play. Is the official correct?"

The answer, despite what many of you are suggesting, is in fact "yes," which is what jdmara is suggesting could be the ruling depending on the situation. The reason the answer is yes is because it does depend on what else is happening on the court around A1. If, for example, A2 is nearby and comes over and grabs the ball before or after a bounce or two, it wasn't the start of a dribble.

You're missing my point. The only valid answer to the question is "unknown" or "so far". You may not know what it is until something else happens. But, if it is a dribble, it was, by definition, so the moment it left the hand. You just have to wait in order to know. The question is incomplete. If it it turns out that it was a dribble, the actual violation occurred when it was released. Returning to the hand just confirms that it was a dribble.

[just another ref]

It is what it is on the release and should be judged at the time. If a defender lunges at the loose ball after it hits the floor and knocks it out of bounds, who would you give it to?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by just another ref

It is what it is on the release and should be judged at the time. If a defender lunges at the loose ball after it hits the floor and knocks it out of bounds, who would you give it to?

Even better...dribbler lifts the pivot, then starts a dribble then there is contact as the defender tries to cover the move. Travel or block (assume block)? Do you think it is right for a defender to have to guard that move?

[BillyMac]

From the files of the Mythbusters:

When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and picks up the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor.

Are the Mythbusters wrong?