From beyond the arc

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Scuba_ref

I will give you the "money" argument and even the "we don't need it" argument, but I don't buy the "it will cause too many problems" argument. I just don't see it.

The rarity of shot clock issues is exceeded by the rarity of games where it's needed.

IOW, it may not create many headaches, but it would solve even fewer.

It's like using napalm to kill a spider in the back yard.

[Jesse James]

Scoring averages go down yearly, in my opinion largely due to increasing demand of the player going to the bucket, or in the post to play through contact.

Making the three-ball longer, or shortening possessions with a clock will only serve to launch even worse shots, and even less scoring.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Adam

The rarity of shot clock issues is exceeded by the rarity of games where it's needed.

IOW, it may not create many headaches, but it would solve even fewer.

It's like using napalm to kill a spider in the back yard.

Agreed. NY uses it at its top BV level (AA) which I think makes sense. More of those kids are going to play at the next level so it doesn't hurt to let them get used to it. That being said it's not as though those kids would stand around playing stall ball if we didn't use it.

The headache comes with finding people to run the thing. In NYC I'd say 98% of the table crews are students. It's tough enough finding kids who can keep a proper scorebook in some places let alone finding someone who can do the shot clock correctly. I've had games where there's an extra 10-15 minutes added on in real time just to deal with mistakes.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by OKREF

How many states only use 2 man mechanics?

What? There are states other than Connecticut that don't work three person games? Get outta here.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

Good point, Billy.

Oh. My. God. Eight years as a Forum member and this has never happened to me before. How do I get Adam's post bronzed? Should I thank all the little people for making this happen?

[dsqrddgd909]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

For both genders?

Disclaimer: admittedly small sample size

Data from Missouri Class 5 (largest class) championship teams (4 girls teams, 4 boys teams) - Season averages:
Girls shot .347
Boys shot .342

[letemplay]

That's a lot of bricks

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by dsqrddgd909

Disclaimer: admittedly small sample size

Data from Missouri Class 5 (largest class) championship teams (4 girls teams, 4 boys teams) - Season averages:
Girls shot .347
Boys shot .342

Originally Posted by letemplay

That's a lot of bricks

Not great. 3-10.

[Pantherdreams]

I'm a FIBA guy so there is obviously some difference since shot clock is the norm. Are there problems with the shot clock you bet but its just part of what you deal with. The better the game the less problems. Dealing with this since it is a rule has more of a perception of being more of game management rather then an inconvenience.

I also think personally (as I've shared here before) that the shot clock is better for promotion/development of more basketball players. If you are a kid is it more likely you will play/want to get better/ shoot more on your own if your teams puts up 60-80 shots pergame and everyone is expected to be able to take and make one. Or if your team puts up 30-50 shots and there are only specific conditions in which someone other than 2-3 three players in specific spots/roles will shoot. Are games more fun when they are player controlled or coach controlled? Shot clock puts more possesions and control in players hands and decision making ability.

That is my mini soap box.

In terms of how often it happens. The all out stall does not happen all that often in Maine which is on our border but the game does change in the 4th guarter once someone has a lead almost everytime, and often in games once a team gets up the offensive/coach control goes into overdrive. In gaems where there is any dispartiy in teams at all almots invariably at one point a team will try to stall to either end/balance out the game.

Behind the arc. In terms of shooting theory. You make more shots when you are on balance and your arm and body movement create singular positive energy on the ball. The more often you take contested shots or try to shoot over/around or through contact/defense the more often you are taking shots that don't meet that criteria. From a strictly bio-mecahnic perspective taking uncontested jump shots should be a better percentage then highly contested interior finishes. That being said because of coaching most kids are much more adept from early ages on and being able to finish in close regardless of the situation then just make open jumpshots. That is IMO one of the key differences between the North American game and International game over seas. The best kids in North America are trained to become proficient 1 on 1 players who can score a variety of ways vs individual defense. The best kids in other international coutnries are trained to be great shooters and to find ways to get themselves or other players open shots.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

Behind the arc. In terms of shooting theory. You make more shots when you are on balance and your arm and body movement create singular positive energy on the ball. The more often you take contested shots or try to shoot over/around or through contact/defense the more often you are taking shots that don't meet that criteria. From a strictly bio-mecahnic perspective taking uncontested jump shots should be a better percentage then highly contested interior finishes.

Not sure I entirely agree with that.

Even with perfect form, distance degrades accuracy. The farther from the basket a player is, there is a smaller and smaller set of trajectories x forces that will even have a chance of going in. Inside, the successful trajectories and forces are more plentiful. You have two independent factors diminishing the probability of a make....distances and defensive pressure. Those curves will certainly cross at some point where the pressure exceeds the effect of distance but I don't think it is always true that and open shot (at any distance) is better than an interior shot, even if highly contested.

Now, if you were referring to an uncontested 12-15' jump shot, I might agree, but not necessarily at 20' or 25'.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

... smaller and smaller set of trajectories x forces that will even have a chance of going in. Inside, the successful trajectories and forces are more plentiful. You have two independent factors diminishing the probability of a make ... curves will certainly cross at some point where the pressure exceeds the effect of distance.

Will this be on the test?

[letemplay]

I disagree somewhat with your statement Cam that a longer shot has a lower chance of going in than one of a shorter distance. I think the 3 point range, lets say 20-23', has become so practiced and the necessary arc, as you say, has been perfected my many, that it IS a more makeable shot. A player that is highly proficient at this distance might struggle with the release and arc necessary for a 10' from the short corner, for instance. Of course if this player practiced this shorter range as much as the 20 footer he might feel more comfortable, but where does he spend most of his practice time at? Beyond the arc, and why not...it's worth 1/3 more

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by letemplay

I...it's worth 1/3 more

I shake my head at BM's comments about math, then I see this.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

From a strictly bio-mecahnic perspective taking uncontested jump shots should be a better percentage then highly contested interior finishes.

Um... no. The degree to which someone must be accurate increases with the square of the distance from the basket. Your statement is not even close to correct. What do you think the percentage success rate on dunks and layups are? Significantly higher than midrange or longrange shots, despite the fact that they are more highly contested.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by letemplay

Beyond the arc, and why not...it's worth 1/3 more

Ah yes, the new 2.6666666 point shot.