2013 IHSA 2A Boys' Final...Plays to Consider

[Camron Rust]

#1. Maybe illegal technically, but no advantage.

#2. Aggressive, but even. Doesn't have to be a foul.

#3. Don't see anything there.

#4. Called a "push" but it was a block....wrong signal but correct foul.

#5. Aggressive and the offense gains an advantage when he sweeps the defender to the floor...needs a foul.

#6. Clear charge. Two bodies down...needs to be called.

#7. No call...Screen was too late to matter relative to the shot. No advantage.

#8. Given what they had been allowing, this was trivial. Noting that the foul actually called was early. Just after the whistle, there was contact that was more deserving of a foul.

[HokiePaul]

The block/charge play #6 seemed like the worst no-call of the group. Not sure how that isn't picked up by someone (both the L and the C were in position to make that call it seems).

I can at least see passing on a couple (#1 (illegal screen), #2 (post play), and #7 (illegal screen) didn't result in a huge advantage.

The post play in #2 is probably the toughest call since its a call you want to make to keep the game from getting too rough, but I'm not sure which side to call it on. Both Offense and Defense are doing their fair share of body checking and fighting for position.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

#2. Aggressive, but even. Doesn't have to be a foul.

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

The post play in #2 is probably the toughest call since its a call you want to make to keep the game from getting too rough, but I'm not sure which side to call it on. Both Offense and Defense are doing their fair share of body checking and fighting for position.

How about going with a double foul here?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by grunewar

How about going with a double foul here?

No chance.

I think they're jockeying for position and both players are well under control. You notice how well the defender respects the fact that the opponent has the ball?

I'm not a fan of a double foul in general -- any of the ones I've called (and I called my first one in years this season) are usually because I know I've missed the first one and can't just penalize the response and be fair about it.

[Raymond]

Play #1: Illegal screen but A1 had already beaten B1 so I can see letting that go

Play #2: If I'm callng anything early is would be for defender pushing offensive player up to free throw line. Once I miss that I'm letting the play finish out.

Play #3: Really don't see much, no-call from what I can see.

Play #4: Need a block call on initial shot. Then we call a touch foul on the tap.

Play #5: I've seen rougher post play. Probably would get the TC foul but B1 fell more from the tangled legs than the arm sweep.

Play #6: I've seen this no-called in NCAA games so I wouldn't be too harsh on the officials for this one. Yes, it was a PC, but by the time a whistle probably would have come you have a defensive rebound and a run out. Not egregious IMO.

Play #7: By the time the screen becomes illegal A1 has the ball so C is now officiating on-ball and there is nobody with a good view of the screen. Maybe one of those plays the coach designs knowing there will only be one official strong-side.

Play #8: I probably would have got that first hand-check in the BC.

[VaTerp]

#1- In real time I'm definitely passing here. Minimal contact and no advantage gained.

#2- I would think I would get a push on the D around FTLE. But offensive player also was moving himself up the lane.

#3- I have a legal play by the defender in getting the tip, incidental contact while the ball is loose, then a backcourt violation.

#4- Obvious block. Have to let offensive player land.

#5- Really not that all that physical. The defender looks like he falls on his own and not as a result of the offense. Good call on the shot.

#6- Need to get this PC foul.

#7- Looks much worse in slow mo. I'm passing here as defender does not really try to get around until it's way too late to contest shot. No advantage.

#8- I can see a handcheck but I can also see passing on what it seems they actually called.

All in all not terrible no-calls though the block/charge plays really need a whistle.

I also don't think the game, based on these clips is that physical either. But I think that as officials we need to get a sense of what the game needs and we need to get that sense pretty quickly. Hard to say without being in the gym but it does seems that this game needed some more whistles early on to clean it up a bit based on the play and other dynamics involved.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

#1. Maybe illegal technically, but no advantage.

#2. Aggressive, but even. Doesn't have to be a foul.

#3. Don't see anything there.

#4. Called a "push" but it was a block....wrong signal but correct foul.

#5. Aggressive and the offense gains an advantage when he sweeps the defender to the floor...needs a foul.

#6. Clear charge. Two bodies down...needs to be called.

#7. No call...Screen was too late to matter relative to the shot. No advantage.

#8. Given what they had been allowing, this was trivial. Noting that the foul actually called was early. Just after the whistle, there was contact that was more deserving of a foul.

I took notes and was going to write up my own observations, but I'm lazy and they match Cameron's exactly.

#5 - There appeared to be a bit of a hold by the defense early, but it wasn't something that was enough to draw a whistle.

The only plays where I would've hoped for something different are 5 (the sweep that put the defender on the floor should've been called) and 6 (it's a charge).

Big boy basketball -- I *love* it.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Rich

I took notes and was going to write up my own observations, but I'm lazy and they match Cameron's exactly.

#5 - There appeared to be a bit of a hold by the defense early, but it wasn't something that was enough to draw a whistle.

The only plays where I would've hoped for something different are 5 (the sweep that put the defender on the floor should've been called) and 6 (it's a charge).

Big boy basketball -- I *love* it.

I took mental notes and "beamed them" to Camron to transcribe. Thanks, Camron.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I took mental notes and "beamed them" to Camron to transcribe. Thanks, Camron.

How about the lottery numbers? Stocks to buy? Anything?

[JetMetFan]

On #2 I really can't see coming away with nothing. Someone did something illegal during that sequence and my first observation was the defender started the ball rolling once he started moving A2 up the lane. Putting a whistle on that can prevent headaches as the game moves on. Also, and this is because I watched the whole game, Blue #55 crossed the border from aggressive to rough a few times early on. He's one of those players where the antenna should be up...something to talk about in the pregame or during a time out. Kids who don't have scoring responsibilities always put me on alert.

#3 was of interest because the dribbler was displaced, there was no call...and then there's a missed backcourt violation as a result.

In the first block/charge the foul was called on the contact after the rebound not the initial drive. That's one where the C would probably want to get the crash if he had to do it again.

I know #6 was iffy. That's why I added the context. It was less than 0:15 of game time after Blue 55 picked up a T. Now the kid has two personals, he's not being taken out, he's already had one pretty aggressive sequence in the post and he's at it again. Granted, there was eventually a whistle on the possession against him but if my antenna are up I'm already thinking he and whoever he gets involved with in the post aren't getting a whole lot of rope.

On #7 positioning had a lot to do with it. It's possible the C could have gotten it with a glance at the next action area since the ball wasn't being pressured but that would've been rough and the L was blocked out. The T could've saved things but take a good look: he's not even on the screen until the shot is taken. That means he was near the division line - another 20 feet away - with only two kids in front of him. Getting that play would've helped the game because White went on to set a few more iffy screens. You get a kid for setting up like a football lineman early and the issue goes away.

I think #8 shows the importance of getting the first call. The little nonsense after the whistle eventually blows may not happen if the first act is called. Plus, it didn't appear as though what was eventually called was really a foul.

[fullor30]

Take your pick on two..... a smorgasburg of fouls all within 3-4 seconds. Call something. I'm convinced non calls like this only escalated the problems.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by fullor30

Take your pick on two..... a smorgasburg of fouls all within 3-4 seconds. Call something. I'm convinced non calls like this only escalated the problems.

This is where you have to read the players and figure out what they're comfortable with. As long as they're both on the same page, you really don't have to have a foul. You can, and it wouldn't be wrong, but it can be passed on just the same. If you're going to pass on it as I suggest is possible, you just have to keep your eye on it to see if either one steps it up and takes it too far.

[Bad Zebra]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

This is where you have to read the players and figure out what they're comfortable with. As long as they're both on the same page, you really don't have to have a foul. You can, and it wouldn't be wrong, but it can be passed on just the same. If you're going to pass on it as I suggest is possible, you just have to keep your eye on it to see if either one steps it up and takes it too far.

I can only see it heading in one direction. I see your point on each one individually...but collectively, I understand why this one went in the tank. Even if the players seemed OK and played it through on the same level, one of the coaches would likely use the non-calls to beat ya over the head.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra

I can only see it heading in one direction. I see your point on each one individually...but collectively, I understand why this one went in the tank. Even if the players seemed OK and played it through on the same level, one of the coaches would likely use the non-calls to beat ya over the head.

Agreed. I can see doing that on "minor" contact that large players can get through. Play #2 isn't minor. Neither were the two block/charges or, IMO, play #7 (the illegal screen on White). If this or any crew establishes a "we'll let you play through stuff but you're also going to play basketball" mindset then players will adjust. The knuckleheads who don't will sit and having them on the sidelines will help the game.

My feeling was whistles on even half these plays changes the tone of the game.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra

I can only see it heading in one direction. I see your point on each one individually...but collectively, I understand why this one went in the tank. Even if the players seemed OK and played it through on the same level, one of the coaches would likely use the non-calls to beat ya over the head.

Agreed. This is the 1st quarter. If this type of thing had been cleaned up early, further problems could have been avoided later by consistently calling this.