Miami at Wake Forest 3pt play

[maven]

Originally Posted by Jay R

I'm not sure sure how this is different than the player who's fouled in the act of shooting which causes him to bobble the ball and continues the act of shooting. My gut feeling is to count the basket. Not because it's "expected" at this level, because I think it's the right call. I may be wrong.

I would encourage you to consult the definition of a "try." The rules are more reliable than your gut.

I agree that by rule the ball becomes dead when he catches the "self-pass" (scare quotes to indicate that by definition there's no such thing).

I also agree that at this level counting the bucket is the expected call, and that as a game management decision this worked out well.

I wonder what happened when the play was reviewed with the supervisor.

[Jay R]

Originally Posted by maven

I would encourage you to consult the definition of a "try." The rules are more reliable than your gut.

I agree that by rule the ball becomes dead when he catches the "self-pass" (scare quotes to indicate that by definition there's no such thing).

I also agree that at this level counting the bucket is the expected call, and that as a game management decision this worked out well.

I wonder what happened when the play was reviewed with the supervisor.

Maven,

Had he only bobbled the ball while he was in the air, would you have counted the basket?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jay R

Had he only bobbled the ball while he was in the air, would you have counted the basket?

The plot thickens.

[maven]

Originally Posted by Jay R

Maven,

Had he only bobbled the ball while he was in the air, would you have counted the basket?

I answer your question with a question: in your situation, is there anything like a foul that would have otherwise caused the ball to become dead?

[Jay R]

Originally Posted by maven

I answer your question with a question: in your situation, is there anything like a foul that would have otherwise caused the ball to become dead?

Who are you, Socrates? I'm not sure I understand your question. I'm saying the same play occured as in the video except that he only bobbles the ball while he's in the air.

The foul on the shooter does not cause the ball to become dead. I think you would agree. Thus, the only remaining decision is whether the shooter started a second act of shooting. I don't think so.

[maven]

Originally Posted by Jay R

Who are you, Socrates? I'm not sure I understand your question. I'm saying the same play occured as in the video except that he only bobbles the ball while he's in the air.

The foul on the shooter does not cause the ball to become dead. I think you would agree. Thus, the only remaining decision is whether the shooter started a second act of shooting. I don't think so.

If you want to talk about the "act of shooting," it ends when the ball is in the air. You've referred to a bobble, which clearly involves the ball in the air. That would mark the end of the "first" act of shooting.

The "first" try ends when it is "certain the throw is unsuccessful." When the player regains control of the "bobbled" ball, it is certain that the "first" throw is unsuccessful. The ball is then dead due to the foul.

There is no "second" try or act of shooting, unless you count the one with a dead ball.

BTW, I fully accept BNR's view that at this level, the rule should be ignored. That does not mean that we all have misinterpreted the rule.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by maven

If you want to talk about the "act of shooting," it ends when the ball is in the air. You've referred to a bobble, which clearly involves the ball in the air. That would mark the end of the "first" act of shooting. The "first" try ends when it is "certain the throw is unsuccessful." When the player regains control of the "bobbled" ball, it is certain that the "first" throw is unsuccessful. The ball is then dead due to the foul.

Good explanation. Previous to this post, I probably would have have counted the basket.

Questions: "NFHS 4-41: The act of shooting begins simultaneously with the start of the try or tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight." Does the statement "clearly in flight" also refer to a bobble? Is a bobble "clearly" a ball in flight? What if, during a continuous motion situation, the ball handler, after getting fouled, and becoming an airborne shooter, switches the ball from one hand, to the other, with, at some point, the ball being airborne between the two hands?

[zm1283]

This should not have counted at any level IMO.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by maven

...

I wonder what happened when the play was reviewed with the supervisor.

"Good call fellas"

NCAA supervisors do not want this shot waved off.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

"Good call fellas"

NCAA supervisors do not want this shot waved off.

While I understand that, I sure do like Walter's rant in the Big Lebowski about the rules.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Welpe

While I understand that, I sure do like Walter's rant in the Big Lebowski about the rules.

Just as importantly college coaches want this basket counted.

And they write the rules.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Just as importantly college coaches want this basket counted.

And they write the rules.

Calling under NCAA rules in football and trying to keep up with the variety of philosophies that sometimes conflict directly with the rules, I certainly get it.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Calling under NCAA rules in football and trying to keep up with the variety of philosophies that sometimes conflict directly with the rules, I certainly get it.

I know you do.

It's some other folks here who only look at the black and white of the rule book and think the game is being damaged if certain areas or "levels" have practical applications that don't always stick to the exact letter of the law.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

It's some other folks here who only look at the black and white of the rule book and think the game is being damaged if certain areas or "levels" have practical applications that don't always stick to the exact letter of the law.

Agree wholeheartedly.

I'm counting that basket at any level I work.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I know you do.

It's some other folks here who only look at the black and white of the rule book and think the game is being damaged if certain areas or "levels" have practical applications that don't always stick to the exact letter of the law.

Even worse is the people who bring those practical applications from another "level" and apply them during a different game. And their excuse is "well, in my XYZ games, that's the way we call it".

As far as the OP, I would count the basket even in a HS game. That's just a flat out strong athletic move and should not be taken away from the shooter.