The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 18, 2013, 04:03am
Ok is the new good
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 654
Players not in book

BV playoff game last night...at 3minute mark of 2nd QTR..Team A brings in 2 subs..the table hits the horn notifying officials that neither player listed in the book.

Do we have one technical foul or two?
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 18, 2013, 04:08am
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 30,463
One.

10-1-2

A team shall not:

After the 10-minute time limit specified in Article 1:

a. Change a designated starter unless necessitated as in 3-2-2a.

b. Add a name to the team member list.

c. Require the scorer to change a team member's or player's number in the scorebook.

d. Require a player to change to the number in the scorebook.

e. Have identical numbers on team members and/or players.

PENALTY: (Art. 2) One foul only per team regardless of the number of infractions. (Art. 2a) Penalized if discovered before ball becomes live to start game. (Arts. 2b, c, d) Penalized when they occur. (Art. 2e) Penalized when discovered.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 18, 2013, 04:19am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 14,995
One or zero.
Before issuing a technical foul, check for the team roster that was supplied to the official scorer prior to the game. If the roster is correct, but the scorer made a transcription error, then don't penalize the team.
If the roster is missing these players, then ONE team technical foul is warranted.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 18, 2013, 07:50am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
Player Or Bench Personnel ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Rookie View Post
BV playoff game last night...at 3minute mark of 2nd QTR..Team A brings in 2 subs..the table hits the horn notifying officials that neither player listed in the book.
Can the coach withdraw the two substitutes before the names are added to the scorebook (and obviously before the ball becomes live) to avoid a technical foul?
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Feb 18, 2013 at 07:53am.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 18, 2013, 10:11am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: West Orange, NJ
Posts: 2,583
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Can the coach withdraw the two substitutes before the names are added to the scorebook (and obviously before the ball becomes live) to avoid a technical foul?
Not if they've already been beckoned.

BV coach tried that in a game this year. One of his kids was wearing #17 (really???) and we told him before the game if the player comes in he - the HC - gets a T. For some odd reason he has the kid check in midway through the 4th quarter of a 6-point game. As we wave him on the coach tells my partner, "Wait, I didn't mean for him to go in!" Riiiiiiight.

The same kid also picked up an IF with two minutes left. Their team ended up winning despite themselves.
__________________
"Everyone has a purpose in life, even if it's only to serve as a bad example."
"If Opportunity knocks and he's not home, Opportunity waits..."
"Don't you have to be stupid somewhere else?" "Not until 4."
"The NCAA created this mess, so let them live with it." (JRutledge)
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 18, 2013, 12:32pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Menifee,CA
Posts: 860
This is easily preventable by the official scorer-had this scenario in a JVG game two weeks ago:

On varsity my policy is to carry copies of each teams roster in my notebook.Upon arrival of visiting teams I have the coaches verify the roster and make corrections if needed.The only corrections I had this year were injury/illness scratches.My rosters and starters for girls games are in well before the start of the warm-up clock.Boys coaches don't show up until 3'rd quarter of girls game so I usually need about 6 minutes to get the rosters/starters verified and in.

On JV I just copy the previously submitted roster for league teams.If dealing with an out of league opponent I copy their book.Regardless of level I will always ask a coach to verify their roster and then get their starters.

*In this scenario I copied the roster from the previous game (league opponent) and asked the V head coach to verify # and names are correct.She did and midway thru the first quarter we had a problem.After an offensive rebound and basket by V timeout was called by H and as I went to give the V shooter her points the number wasn't in the book.Called the R over and told him the scenario.R brings coach over and asked her if I had asked her to verify the roster-she says yes and R gives her a T for changing a number.Kid wore #11 the first time (their home game) and #42 this time (our home game)-checked remaining numbers and everything was good.

Last edited by SCalScoreKeeper; Mon Feb 18, 2013 at 12:35pm.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 18, 2013, 12:38pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 716
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCalScoreKeeper View Post
This is easily preventable by the official scorer-had this scenario in a JVG game two weeks ago:

On varsity my policy is to carry copies of each teams roster in my notebook.Upon arrival of visiting teams I have the coaches verify the roster and make corrections if needed.The only corrections I had this year were injury/illness scratches.My rosters and starters for girls games are in well before the start of the warm-up clock.Boys coaches don't show up until 3'rd quarter of girls game so I usually need about 6 minutes to get the rosters/starters verified and in.

On JV I just copy the previously submitted roster for league teams.If dealing with an out of league opponent I copy their book.Regardless of level I will always ask a coach to verify their roster and then get their starters.

*In this scenario I copied the roster from the previous game (league opponent) and asked the V head coach to verify # and names are correct.She did and midway thru the first quarter we had a problem.After an put-back timeout was called by white and as I went to give the shooter her points the number wasn't in the book.Called the R over and told him the scenario.R brings coach over and asked her if I had asked her to verify the roster-she says yes and R gives her a T for changing a number.Kid wore #11 the first time (their home game) and #42 this time (our home game)-checked remaining numbers and everything was good.
Well, in most cases, but not always.....

We had a VB game last week. The JV coach had been named interim head coach earlier in the week. A new scorer was being used as apparently the former scorer only worked for the now former head coach. We had a player with his JV number in the book (remember, the head V Coach was also the JV coach). They also decided to dress an extra player about 5 minutes before pregame ended.

RESULT: Two book violations during the first half. One Technical for the first violation....No technical for the second violation per rule highlighted by JRut previously.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 18, 2013, 01:04pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Menifee,CA
Posts: 860
Does the coach also lose their box for this Technical Foul? if he/she does then the officials got part of the rule correct as she was allowed to remain standing for the next three quarters.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 18, 2013, 01:37pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 12,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Can the coach withdraw the two substitutes before the names are added to the scorebook (and obviously before the ball becomes live) to avoid a technical foul?
Yes. Until the substitute enters the court, they are not a player and do not have to be added.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 18, 2013, 01:38pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 12,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCalScoreKeeper View Post
Does the coach also lose their box for this Technical Foul? if he/she does then the officials got part of the rule correct as she was allowed to remain standing for the next three quarters.
No T (direct or indirect) on the coach for book related T's. Those are team technical fouls only.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 18, 2013, 01:41pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Menifee,CA
Posts: 860
Thanks Cameron
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 18, 2013, 01:57pm
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
Quote:
Originally Posted by JetMetFan View Post
Not if they've already been beckoned.
Is there a rule basis for this? Or is it a local philosophy?

Personally, I'd give the coach the option to withdraw the sub. Just the other night I beckoned a player during a free throw only to have the coach pull him back before he came in. He's not a player until he plays, IMO.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 18, 2013, 02:11pm
We don't rent pigs
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 7,627
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
He's not a player until he plays, IMO.
A substitute becomes a player when he legally enters the court. 4-34-3
__________________
I swear, Gus, you'd argue with a possum.
It'd be easier than arguing with you, Woodrow.


Lonesome Dove
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 18, 2013, 02:41pm
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
A substitute becomes a player when he legally enters the court. 4-34-3
I understand that. I'm just saying that in this case, I'm giving some latitude to prevent the player from entering if the coach wants to prevent the T.

Either way, whether he's beckoned or not doesn't really matter here. If I beckon him, and the coach pulls him back before he enters, then my latitude isn't even necessary.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 18, 2013, 03:01pm
We don't rent pigs
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 7,627
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
I understand that. I'm just saying that in this case, I'm giving some latitude to prevent the player from entering if the coach wants to prevent the T.

Either way, whether he's beckoned or not doesn't really matter here. If I beckon him, and the coach pulls him back before he enters, then my latitude isn't even necessary.
I'm may not be picturing this right. You beckon the sub. He enters. Somebody tells the coach this player is not in the book. I think it's too late at this point to pull him back.
__________________
I swear, Gus, you'd argue with a possum.
It'd be easier than arguing with you, Woodrow.


Lonesome Dove
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
NFHS Rules book & case book on my phone. referee99 Basketball 28 Wed Jan 11, 2012 06:17am
Rule book and Case book correlation? resin113 Basketball 3 Mon Oct 10, 2011 02:09pm
NCAA rule book and case book SAK Basketball 11 Mon Jul 13, 2009 08:36am
Best book (besides rule book) for learning rules? Johnny Cakes Football 2 Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:43am
Players in the Book eventnyc Basketball 5 Wed Jan 08, 2003 08:45am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:39pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1