Playoff conversation???

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by zm1283

At the high school level, I firmly believe this depends on where you live and how playoff assignments are made and who makes them.

I doubt it very much. The systems may vary but there will always be officials left out that think they deserve to be in. The numbers may vary from place to place but the situation will be the same.

And it is not necessarily a bad thing. It is a competitive environment and comparisons and goals are to be expected. It occurs at every level in every sport all around the world. Some people, however, choose to cause trouble over it and others choose to worry about what they can control and let the rest go as it will go.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I doubt it very much. The systems may vary but there will always be officials left out that think they deserve to be in. The numbers may vary from place to place but the situation will be the same.

And it is not necessarily a bad thing. It is a competitive environment and comparisons and goals are to be expected. It occurs at every level in every sport all around the world. Some people, however, choose to cause trouble over it and others choose to worry about what they can control and let the rest go as it will go.

You are right, I have not heard any system that someone does not complain about. We have no coaches making the decision and officials here complain about every aspect. Honestly what I have found is those that work hard, work different places and are highly regarded get the assignments and go further in the playoffs. Not that that is the only thing, but many who complain do very little and think they deserve a spot.

Peace

[Raymond]

I have 3 play-off games this week, all within 15 minutes of my house

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I have 3 play-off games this week, all within 15 minutes of my house

I beat you. Four games next week at a place 3 miles away.

It will only take me 15 minutes if the light does not turn green fast enough when I am driving.

Peace

[Lcubed48]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I have 3 play-off games this week, all within 15 minutes of my house

Conrats, Oh hero o' mine! And for this how about a trip or two out to Bluestone next season. It only seems fair.
PS - don't forget to pick me up.

[VaTerp]

Around here our association assigner selects officials for all district and regional playoffs. There is no direct input from coaches. We have a peer evaluation where all varsity officials rate their partners throughout the season and the scores are tabulated and each official receives a year end ranking. We also have evaluators who observe games throughout the year. I'm not sure how much weight any one factor has but it's ultimately the assignor's discretion who works all playoff games.

The state playoffs begin with quarterfinals and are assigned by the state (VHSL) athletic director. I believe the assigner or commissioner for each sanctioned association submits a list and VHSL assigns from that list. Quarterfinal games are worked by crews from the same association, while semi-finals and finals are worked with mixed crews.

There is also a summer VHSL evaluation camp where they take 36 officials from across the state and evaluate them over 2 days in conjunction with a team camp. You are then rated in 9 categories and given your score, ranking, and the avg score of all officials at the camp. I've been told that they are trying to move toward making attendance at this camp a prerequisite for state tournament assignments but I imagine that is a long ways away if it ever even happens. I attended the camp this past summer even though I worked a state quarterfinal last season.

Last year I found out I got my quarterfinal game the week of the regionals. This year, my assignor asked me to confirm my availability for a state semi-final about 10 days ago. I received the assignment in Arbiter this week and will get an email from VHSL telling me who my partners will be. My guess is that they start with the state finals and then work their way back in terms of assignments.

As for the conversations, people will talk and complain about who gets what. We even have some officials who show up at districts and regionals, and probably the state games too just to see who is working and question why so and so is working certain games.

I hear the talk about other officials and know things are likely said about me as well. Some people don't like the fact that this is just my 4th year in the association and I've received some fairly good assignments. I've been referred to as a kiss-azz and some other things. But I know that's the way things go so I don't really pay attention to it. I'm working a girls regional semi tonight and am sure there will be some of these very officials sitting in the stands.

What I do is make myself available, work the games I'm assigned, try to get better, and try not to be the source of problems and headaches. That's worked fairly well for me and it's the advice I give others when they bring up the politics and "game-playing" involved in getting better schedules and/or playoff assignments.

Regardless of the system used, there will be worthy people left out and some legitimate questions about whose working those games. But there will also be many more people focused on complaining and critiquing the system and individual officials rather than putting their focus on improving their game to get the assignments they say they want.

[JRutledge]

I have another question for everyone.

We have 4 levels of playoffs. Regionals, Sectionals, Super-Sectionals and State Finals.

Regionals and Sectionals have a Championship game. The Super-Sectional is one game at usually a college site or bigger high school gym. And the State Finals include the semifinals and the finals of a particular class.

Now for us in Illinois to work all the way to the State Finals, we have to work a championship at each level before getting state that season. We do not just get assigned a Sectional Final for example than then miss the Super-Sectional and work State.

Is that similar to other areas or can you work the State Finals without working other levels in that season? Also to advance to a Sectional for example, you have to had previous years of working Regional Finals to get to the Sectional level. Is that also similar or different?

Peace

[JerryLundagard]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I have another question for everyone.

We have 4 levels of playoffs. Regionals, Sectionals, Super-Sectionals and State Finals.

Regionals and Sectionals have a Championship game. The Super-Sectional is one game at usually a college site or bigger high school gym. And the State Finals include the semifinals and the finals of a particular class.

Now for us in Illinois to work all the way to the State Finals, we have to work a championship at each level before getting state that season. We do not just get assigned a Sectional Final for example than then miss the Super-Sectional and work State.

Is that similar to other areas or can you work the State Finals without working other levels in that season? Also to advance to a Sectional for example, you have to had previous years of working Regional Finals to get to the Sectional level. Is that also similar or different?

Peace

In Missouri we have four levels; District, Sectional, Quarterfinal and State Finals. Only the district and State Finals have a championship game. The other two levels are single games.

There is no progression that is consistently followed. You do not have to work a District Championship game to work a sectional game, nor do you have to work a sectional game to work a quarterfinal game. The norm is an official usually works a sectional game or a quarterfinal game but not both. There are of course exceptions at times.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I have another question for everyone.

We have 4 levels of playoffs. Regionals, Sectionals, Super-Sectionals and State Finals.

Regionals and Sectionals have a Championship game. The Super-Sectional is one game at usually a college site or bigger high school gym. And the State Finals include the semifinals and the finals of a particular class.

Now for us in Illinois to work all the way to the State Finals, we have to work a championship at each level before getting state that season. We do not just get assigned a Sectional Final for example than then miss the Super-Sectional and work State.

Is that similar to other areas or can you work the State Finals without working other levels in that season? Also to advance to a Sectional for example, you have to had previous years of working Regional Finals to get to the Sectional level. Is that also similar or different?

Peace

Not here in VA. Like VA Terp said we have 3 level of play-offs--Districts, Regionals, States. They are all assigned independent of what you worked in other rounds. We have 5 classes: A (D1), A (D2), AA (D3), AA (D4), AAA.

In 2010 I worked all 3 rounds (Quarter, Semi, Final) of the AA (D3 & D4) regionals but found out I was not qualified for the State tournament because of the camp requirement. I crew-chiefed a AA (D4) Boys State Quarterfinal in 2011 but I did not work any other AA games that season because my board had lost its AA conference. I still had not attended the camp (long story involving an ousted commissioner and what is now a political split of officials in the area) but got my assignment through a recommendation by someone the VHSL director trusted and respected. In 2012 my board only had 1 public school (Single A) and folks in our association were allowed to work through the regionals but we were shut out of the State tournament.

If not for the political split and my home board losing all its public school contracts I'm quite confident I would have worked a Final Four game in Richmond last year and/or this year.

So I am one official who can legitimately claim that politics has affected me at the State level, both negatively and positively.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by JerryLundagard

In Missouri we have four levels; District, Sectional, Quarterfinal and State Finals. Only the district and State Finals have a championship game. The other two levels are single games.

There is no progression that is consistently followed. You do not have to work a District Championship game to work a sectional game, nor do you have to work a sectional game to work a quarterfinal game. The norm is an official usually works a sectional game or a quarterfinal game but not both. There are of course exceptions at times.

There are quite a few people in our area that work both a sectional and quarterfinal in the same year. I don't know exactly how many, but I have talked to several who are doing both. Now one may be a Class 1 boys sectional next week and then a Class 4 girls quarterfinal the week after. There are some others who will work two sectionals, but one is a smaller class game and the other a larger class game the next week.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by zm1283

There are quite a few people in our area that work both a sectional and quarterfinal in the same year. I don't know exactly how many, but I have talked to several who are doing both. Now one may be a Class 1 boys sectional next week and then a Class 4 girls quarterfinal the week after. There are some others who will work two sectionals, but one is a smaller class game and the other a larger class game the next week.

I was referring more about the same playoffs, not two different genders. We have people that work both genders (not that many in my area) but there are a few. Usually not practical for all as the tournaments cross over each other. You are almost forced to pick if you want to go deep into one of the playoffs.

Peace

[JerryLundagard]

Originally Posted by zm1283

There are quite a few people in our area that work both a sectional and quarterfinal in the same year. I don't know exactly how many, but I have talked to several who are doing both. Now one may be a Class 1 boys sectional next week and then a Class 4 girls quarterfinal the week after. There are some others who will work two sectionals, but one is a smaller class game and the other a larger class game the next week.

Not the case in the St. Louis area. Possibly because of the number of officials that are available. Unless they make it to the finals most officials get one assignment past the district level.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Not here in VA. Like VA Terp said we have 3 level of play-offs--Districts, Regionals, States. They are all assigned independent of what you worked in other rounds. We have 5 classes: A (D1), A (D2), AA (D3), AA (D4), AAA.

In 2010 I worked all 3 rounds (Quarter, Semi, Final) of the AA (D3 & D4) regionals but found out I was not qualified for the State tournament because of the camp requirement. I crew-chiefed a AA (D4) Boys State Quarterfinal in 2011 but I did not work any other AA games that season because my board had lost its AA conference. I still had not attended the camp (long story involving an ousted commissioner and what is now a political split of officials in the area) but got my assignment through a recommendation by someone the VHSL director trusted and respected. In 2012 my board only had 1 public school (Single A) and folks in our association were allowed to work through the regionals but we were shut out of the State tournament.

If not for the political split and my home board losing all its public school contracts I'm quite confident I would have worked a Final Four game in Richmond last year and/or this year.

So I am one official who can legitimately claim that politics has affected me at the State level, both negatively and positively.

So is there the same talk there about the Eval camp being mandatory for state tournament selection? I think it's going to be hard to implement for various reasons but maybe I'm wrong. Sounds like some are already saying it's a requirement.

And too bad about the local politics. Hope that gets resolved and maybe I will get to see you or work with you at Seigel Center soon.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

So is there the same talk there about the Eval camp being mandatory for state tournament selection? I think it's going to be hard to implement for various reasons but maybe I'm wrong. Sounds like some are already saying it's a requirement.

And too bad about the local politics. Hope that gets resolved and maybe I will get to see you or work with you at Seigel Center soon.

Thanks.

The supposed requirement as I've heard it stands now is that to be eligible you have to have either attended the eval camp or worked in the state tourney previously. But there seems to be no real enforcement as of yet as evidenced by the fact that I did a state game based on an outside recommendation.

I'm confident I'll get there one day. It's a goal I set for myself after my first or second year officiating.

[Lcubed48]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

So is there the same talk there about the Eval camp being mandatory for state tournament selection? I think it's going to be hard to implement for various reasons but maybe I'm wrong. Sounds like some are already saying it's a requirement.

And too bad about the local politics. Hope that gets resolved and maybe I will get to see you or work with you at Seigel Center soon.

Will you be there next week? I'm working as a host for the officials on Monday PM and Wednesday AM. BNR and others would/will receive special treatment any time. I'll add you to my list.