Justified Technical?

Happened to me today, I would like your thoughts.

I had the same team twice in three hours. In the first game, team A won easily, but their coach was not very nice to me in his demeanor or words. I ignored most of the stuff he directed at me in the first game. Before the second game where I had his team again, I considered talking to him and telling him that while I was not going to let his actions "build up" or "carry over" from the first game, meaning I was going to treat the slate as fresh. I decided not too. (After I tell the rest, let me know if I should have talked to him before the second game.)

I communicated with my partner that this coach liked to talk at the officials, and off we went! The first half was ok, but during the second his comments started to pile up. He started yelling at my partner in the third quarter, and I gave him the stop sign and told him "that's enough coach!". In the fourth quarter he said sarcastically, "I guess you must be tired, what is this, like your fifth game today" -- saying that the reason for my poor (in his eyes) performance was that I was tired and not sharp enough. I warned him about staying in the coaches box, and not coming onto the floor, because he was getting in the way of my running up and down the court. He replied, "I'm on the court the whole time!!" This seemed to me like a major challenge. He also said "you are really good at the rules [aka the coaching box] that don't apply to the game". The ball was in play when he said the last one, so I waited until the next dead ball and gave him a technical. Should I have given it to him right away?

The thing is, what I have quoted him as saying may not seem that bad. However, the tone and manner in which he said these things was definitely negative and meant to demean/challenge me.

Thoughts?

[just another ref]

I have a saying: "Coach, don't talk to me like I work for you, because I don't."

Sounds like to me that's exactly what this coach was doing.

Sounds like you had multiple opportunities for a T.

I see no possible reason to wait for a dead ball.

[Adam]

After you told him it was enough, you gave him another warning?

And jar is right, no need to wait for a dead ball. Do it immediately, like punishing a dog for peeing on the carpet.

Originally Posted by just another ref

I see no possible reason to wait for a dead ball.

Originally Posted by Adam

And jar is right, no need to wait for a dead ball. Do it immediately, like punishing a dog for peeing on the carpet.

Ok, I will not hesitate next time. I waited partially because I was trying to decide if it was T-worthy. I decided to call it once I remembered what someone else here said: "the only technicals I regret are the ones I didn't give".

Originally Posted by Adam

After you told him it was enough, you gave him another warning?

I warned him for his comments to us. I gave him a reminder about staying in the coaching box, which I didn't see as intentional. He then gave me that line about the rules that apply to the game, which went beyond the previous warning for his comments. T.

[Nevadaref]

You are correct that the coach's comment was insulting and worthy of a T.
Others have told you that you should assess this immediately, unless the opposing team has a scoring play in progress, then wait as you don't want to unfairly deprive them of that.
Now please take this as kind advice and reflect upon it: you were greatly mistaken to ignore the coach during the first game. By the 2nd qtr of that contest you should have addressed his unsporting behavior. As our beloved JR used to say, nip it in the bud!
By ignoring it for an entire game, you sent the message that his behavior was permissible, and what you allow, you condone! Don't ever put yourself in this situation again. Take care of business by sending the message nice and early that you are an official who will be respected. Show the coach proper respect, as well, but you must be firm and establish that you won't be taking his garbage all game!
By the time that you decided to deal with this (even before game #2 was far too late as it would have been taken as you harboring ill will from game #1) the molehill had already become a mountain.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

As our beloved JR used to say, nip it in the bud!

Totally right. The first game was a bit different though. In the first game his comments were just that -- comments. Comments I ignore. In the second game he got personal, and that is something I could not ignore.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

Ok, I will not hesitate next time. I waited partially because I was trying to decide if it was T-worthy. I decided to call it once I remembered what someone else here said: "the only technicals I regret are the ones I didn't give".



I warned him for his comments to us. I gave him a reminder about staying in the coaching box, which I didn't see as intentional. He then gave me that line about the rules that apply to the game, which went beyond the previous warning for his comments. T.

The way I read your OP, you warned him about the box after he made further comments about your officiating. You should have given him a T here.

Nevada's advice is also solid. Note, persistent comments should normally be nipped in the bud as well.

Originally Posted by Adam

Note, persistent comments should normally be nipped in the bud as well.

Gotcha. In the first game, I did not give him a technical because he did not say anything worthy of one. However, his comments were devolving from simply comments to something more personal. Should I have spoken with him before the second game and let him know continued comments would not be tolerated?

Originally Posted by Adam

The way I read your OP, you warned him about the box after he made further comments about your officiating. You should have given him a T here.

When I reminded him about staying in the box, he asked if I was serious. After the game, the timer (who was affiliated with his team) politely asked if I had issued a technical because of the coach not staying in his box. I said no, and explained why. The feeling I got from the coach and the timer was that if I had called a tech for the coaching box thing, then that would have been seen as a "BS tech" from them, and something they could go to the tournament director with. I know it's a rule, but is issuing a technical for straying outside the coaches box really something worth having to deal with the tournament director/my assigner about?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

Gotcha. In the first game, I did not give him a technical because he did not say anything worthy of one. However, his comments were devolving from simply comments to something more personal. Should I have spoken with him before the second game and let him know continued comments would not be tolerated?

Absolutely not.

Originally Posted by seanwestref

When I reminded him about staying in the box, he asked if I was serious. After the game, the timer (who was affiliated with his team) politely asked if I had issued a technical because of the coach not staying in his box. I said no, and explained why. The feeling I got from the coach and the timer was that if I had called a tech for the coaching box thing, then that would have been seen as a "BS tech" from them, and something they could go to the tournament director with. I know it's a rule, but is issuing a technical for straying outside the coaches box really something worth having to deal with the tournament director/my assigner about?

Frankly, I don't give a crap what the timer or coach thinks about a foul. The way I read your OP, here's the order of events I see:
1. Coach makes comments you deem worthy of addressing, so you warn him.
2. Coach is out of the box, making more comments that should have earned a T. Rather than give the T, you decide to warn him about the box.
3. Coach continues to make comments, so you give him the T.

I would have given him the T in step #2 above.

Normally, if a coach is out of the box making comments, I'll warn him to stay in the box. If he's already been warned for comments, though, he doesn't get another one just because he's breaking another rule I haven't addressed yet.

[maven]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

Gotcha. In the first game, I did not give him a technical because he did not say anything worthy of one. However, his comments were devolving from simply comments to something more personal. Should I have spoken with him before the second game and let him know continued comments would not be tolerated?

Remember, Personal is just one of the T-worthy 3 P's.

[scrounge]

I had something similar earlier this year, except it was 1st half to 2nd half. One of the varsity officials (in our area, it's expected for varsity officials to be there at the start of the JV game and often come in the locker room at half) made a great point at halftime: if the coaches' comments are reaching the point where they're distracting you from doing your job, you can't let it go on.

In my case, there were continuous needling comments that wouldn't stop, none of which on their own were profane or personal but they certainly were distracting. The half ended with my partner giving a warning. After halftime, it started up again, at which time I gave a formal, "stop sign" warning myself (yea, I prob shouldn't done it, but I wanted to make extra sure there was no doubt). No more than 5 secs later, as I'm trail in the backcourt, he's up and *****ing again. T. Not a peep after that. In fact, the other coach who wasn't as bad but had some moments as well stopped yapping, and the players cleaned it up a bit (play-wise, nothing was ever said by them) as well. Now I can't be sure it was just because of the T...but it sure didn't hurt.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

Gotcha. In the first game, I did not give him a technical because he did not say anything worthy of one. However, his comments were devolving from simply comments to something more personal. Should I have spoken with him before the second game and let him know continued comments would not be tolerated?



When I reminded him about staying in the box, he asked if I was serious. After the game, the timer (who was affiliated with his team) politely asked if I had issued a technical because of the coach not staying in his box. I said no, and explained why. The feeling I got from the coach and the timer was that if I had called a tech for the coaching box thing, then that would have been seen as a "BS tech" from them, and something they could go to the tournament director with. I know it's a rule, but is issuing a technical for straying outside the coaches box really something worth having to deal with the tournament director/my assigner about?

You are way too concerned about what coaches think. Just referee your games. If a coach is out his box tell him he needs to return to it. If he is then out the box and making inappropriate comments then T his a$$ up and move on. And doesn't get an explanation afterwards.

[BktBallRef]

#1, no, you should never talk to a coach about what may have happened in the previous game, whether the game was 10 minutes or 10 years ago.

#2, once you gave him the warning, you shouldn't have any other discussion with him unless it's in reply to a question that's respectfully asked.

#3, you don't owe the timer an explanation. A polite "No." and then resume the game.

Originally Posted by maven

Remember, Personal is just one of the T-worthy 3 P's.

What are the other two P's?

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

You are way too concerned about what coaches think.

Yeah, you are right.

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

#3, you don't owe the timer an explanation. A polite "No." and then resume the game.

As I wrote, it was after the game. And he was respectful and polite about it, so I told him "No, the technical was for the comments", and left.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

What are the other two P's?

Profane. Persistent.