2-man three-point coverage

This past Friday I had a game where my partner (as the lead) would not signal for three-point attempts in his corner (opposite me at trail). Thus, I had no idea what kind of shots were being taken down there, and had no signal to mirror. During a break in play I asked my P to signal those shots as the Lead, but he said he didn't have to.

I sent him an email today (allowing for some cooling-down); basically outlining the rules I thought were pertinent. NFHS Officials Manual: 2.3.2.A.5 (Diagram 2-16), which cover PCA of the lead. 2.3.4.A.1, which reinforces coverage responsibility, and 2.3.4.B.3, 4, 5, and 6, all of which deal with responsibilities during a three-point try.

He said this: "I don't care what the book says. They will teach the lead to show but not signal. The lead is responsible for paint play and the baseline. The show is for help for the trail. The table will/should always look to the trail for a 3 point make. In 2-man the only reason the lead is involved whatsoever is to relay it was indeed a legal 3 point make."

Maybe he does not understand the situation I mean (three-point try in the corner opposite the Trail)?

Am I understanding the rules correctly?

He used college mechanics most of the night, is this a NCAA thing? I know NCAA does not list 2-man mechanics, but I'm trying to figure out the disconnect here.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

This past Friday I had a game where my partner (as the lead) would not signal for three-point attempts in his corner (opposite me at trail). Thus, I had no idea what kind of shots were being taken down there, and had no signal to mirror. During a break in play I asked my P to signal those shots as the Lead, but he said he didn't have to.

I sent him an email today (allowing for some cooling-down); basically outlining the rules I thought were pertinent. NFHS Officials Manual: 2.3.2.A.5 (Diagram 2-16), which cover PCA of the lead. 2.3.4.A.1, which reinforces coverage responsibility, and 2.3.4.B.3, 4, 5, and 6, all of which deal with responsibilities during a three-point try.

He said this: "I don't care what the book says. They will teach the lead to show but not signal. The lead is responsible for paint play and the baseline. The show is for help for the trail. The table will/should always look to the trail for a 3 point make. In 2-man the only reason the lead is involved whatsoever is to relay it was indeed a legal 3 point make."

Maybe he does not understand the situation I mean (three-point try in the corner opposite the Trail)?

Am I understanding the rules correctly?

He used college mechanics most of the night, is this a NCAA thing? I know NCAA does not list 2-man mechanics, but I'm trying to figure out the disconnect here.

He's wrong. The lead has primary 3-point responsibilities from his free throw line extended to the corner. It's also his primary coverage area in that corner, as well.

But you did what you could do, you may as well drop it.

As far as NCAA coverage, you won't see NCAA games scheduled with 2 officials, so it's not really an NFHS/NCAA thing.

[ODog]

Our interpreter did a nice presentation on this topic in one of our meetings last month.

As Rich said, lead has to signal those attempts in his area. And any time you signal an attempt, you also signal the successful goal.

Trail mirrors the successful-goal signal, but does not have to mirror attempts.

So as the trail, you will signal every successful 3-point goal.

Lead mirrors nothing, as you all know, but you do see a lot of it.

Originally Posted by ODog

Our interpreter did a nice presentation on this topic in one of our meetings last month.

Dang, I wish I had my own interpreter. I sent the guy another email, clarifying my position. He responded by saying he knows what the book says, but that "they" teach that the lead only has to give the initial three-fingers extended signal, not the three-point make signal. I'm going to leave it at that and not ask who "they" are.

Originally Posted by ODog

Lead mirrors nothing, as you all know, but you do see a lot of it.

I know you are talking about HS rules. I went to a D3 game last week. In transition, the Center had an intentional foul (Flagrant 1). The referee (Trail at the time) chewed the Lead official out for not mirroring the intentional foul signal, saying it would have sold the call better. So I guess, in some situations and at some levels, the Lead does mirror signals.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

Dang, I wish I had my own interpreter. I sent the guy another email, clarifying my position. He responded by saying he knows what the book says, but that "they" teach that the lead only has to give the initial three-fingers extended signal, not the three-point make signal. I'm going to leave it at that and not ask who "they" are.

That's the NCAAW mechanic for 3-person. L signals the attempt below the FT line extended, but only the T/C signal the successful basket.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

He used college mechanics most of the night, is this a NCAA thing? I know NCAA does not list 2-man mechanics, but I'm trying to figure out the disconnect here.

Even if it was an NCAA game and he had to go two-person (i.e., the 3rd didn't show or got hurt) he'd have to signal the attempt and the make. The question to ask him in your game would have been, "if you don't signal as the L on a three in your PCA, who is supposed to?"

Someone will have to answer what the mechanic is for NCAAM but in NCAAW if there's a three in your PCA you signal the attempt but not the make, unless it's a quick transistion. The T can mirror the attempt and both the T and L signal the make.

Your partner sounds as though he's a college official who forgot what level he was working that night.

Originally Posted by seanwestref

I went to a D3 game last week. In transition, the Center had an intentional foul (Flagrant 1). The referee (Trail at the time) chewed the Lead official out for not mirroring the intentional foul signal, saying it would have sold the call better. So I guess, in some situations and at some levels, the Lead does mirror signals.

As I sit here looking at my NCAAW CCA Manual I'm not seeing anything about officials mirroring F1 signals.

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

As I sit here looking at my NCAAW CCA Manual I'm not seeing anything about officials mirroring F1 signals.

That is correct. I asked the R about it after and he said, "it's not a mechanic, but it is a good idea. Having two intentional signals makes it easier to defend to the coach. It is simply backing up your partner by mirroring the signal."

[Rich]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

That is correct. I asked the R about it after and he said, "it's not a mechanic, but it is a good idea. Having two intentional signals makes it easier to defend to the coach. It is simply backing up your partner by mirroring the signal."

Not everything you're told is good. This, IMO, is an example.

Originally Posted by Rich

Not everything you're told is good.

Very true. However, based on my respect for this officials experience and qualifications, I will do this from now on.

[ODog]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

"they" teach that the lead only has to give the initial three-fingers extended signal, not the three-point make signal.

...

So I guess, in some situations and at some levels, the Lead does mirror signals.

I guess I misunderstood. Wasn't your initial beef with this guy that he "would not signal for three-point attempts in his corner"? If he was at least doing what he says "they" do, didn't you survive OK since you knew when it went in you were OK to give the "success" signal? Or was he saying that's what "they" teach and then not even doing that much?


As for L mirroring signals, I was strictly talking about on 3s. You see a lot of guys mirroring 3-point attempts and goals way out of their PCA as L because they've heard something, somewhere about mirroring and they're like, "Oh yeah, mirroring."

Originally Posted by ODog

I guess I misunderstood. Wasn't your initial beef with this guy that he "would not signal for three-point attempts in his corner"? If he was at least doing what he says "they" do, didn't you survive OK since you knew when it went in you were OK to give the "success" signal? Or was he saying that's what "they" teach and then not even doing that much?

Yes, that was my initial beef. The conversation developed to where I was talking about other times the Lead would mirror signals.

Yes, I did survive OK. As the Trail, I was observing my PCA when players put up three-point try's in his (Lead) PCA. He would put his three fingers up, but take it down once the three either missed or went through. I had to pay quick attention to his sign before he put it down, and signal accordingly. As the trail, being the only one signalling to the table "made three-point try" it certainly looked bad. I could have had a coach ask me "how are you signalling a made three-pointer from across the court??" but thankfully I did not. If a three-point try in his (Lead) area is good, we should both be signalling, not just me (Trail).

No, he was saying "they" told him to put up the initial three-point try signal (hand extended at head level, three fingers out) but not signal made three-point try (both arms extended straight up, palms facing).

Originally Posted by ODog

As for L mirroring signals, I was strictly talking about on 3s.

Yep, I understand now.

[ODJ]

Last week my partner signaled every 3PA whether L or T. Made my job easier.

To clarify: if L signals a successful 3PA from his PCA, only T mirrors. Yes?

Originally Posted by ODJ

To clarify: if L signals a successful 3PA from his PCA, only T mirrors. Yes?

2 man: Yes, T mirrors.

3 man: trick question; the L will never signal because his PCA only includes space inside the three-point line.

[ODog]

Originally Posted by ODJ

To clarify: if L signals a successful 3PA from his PCA, only T mirrors. Yes?

In HS two-man, yes. And if T signals a 3PA and its success in his PCA, L does nothing at all.

[JeroenB]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

He responded by saying he knows what the book says, but that "they" teach that the lead only has to give the initial three-fingers extended signal, not the three-point make signal.

So as lead he did signal three point attempts in his corner (using three fingers, isn't the NFHS signal for a 3PA a full hand?), but he didn't confirm if the shot was made by putting up a second hand? Sounds like FIBA 2-men mechanics to me.