UNC/Georgia Tech

[JetMetFan]

C definitely should've been able to come in and help on play #1. If you stop the clip at 0:06 or at 0:14 there's no one blocking his view of the RA. For me, the big hint would been the UNC player backing away from A1. It's kind of tough to back up that deep in the lane and not end up in the RA.

Since the play was coming from the strong side the T could've seen this as well. I realize he has two players in his area but that really wasn't a competetive matchup.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

C definitely should've been able to come in and help on play #1. If you stop the clip at 0:06 or at 0:14 there's no one blocking his view of the RA. For me, the big hint would been the UNC player backing away from A1. It's kind of tough to back up that deep in the lane and not end up in the RA.

Since the play was coming from the strong side the T could've seen this as well. I realize he has two players in his area but that really wasn't a competetive matchup.

That brings up an interesting question...

For the most part, the RA is to address secondary defenders rotating from a position such that they don't have time to get through and outside the RA to set up in LGP and the stop under the basket having never been otherwise in the opponents path.

In this case, the defender actually had LGP outside of the RA initially. He then stepped back into the RA as the opponent approached. Perhaps that should make him the primary defender???? At what point does a secondary defender become a primary? Clearly they do at some point...where is it?

[JRutledge]

Here is the rule in the rulebook.

4-61

Section 61. Secondary Defender

Art. 1. A secondary defender is a teammate who has helped a primary defender after that player has been beaten by an opponent because he/she failed to establish or maintain a guarding position. A defensive player is beaten when the offensive player’s head and shoulders get past the defender.

Art. 2. A secondary defender is a teammate who double teams a low post player.

Art. 3. After an offensive rebound, there are no secondary defenders when the
rebounder makes an immediate move to the basket.

Art. 4. In an outnumbering fast-break situation, any defensive player(s) initially shall be a secondary defender.

Peace

[JetMetFan]

Okay...I'm going to revise my position based on an NCAAW interpretation update we received in December of 2011 and the last two posts by JRut and Camron. Play #1 was called correctly (assuming NCAAM received the same update we did):

*A secondary defender can establish guarding position in the restricted area then can re-establish legal guarding position outside the restricted area before the ball handler gets to her. After re-establishing a guarding position outside the restricted area, the defender can then guard the ball handler legally and take a charge either inside or outside the restricted area.

Again, if NCAAM received the same interp we did then the play was called correctly. The UNC player first established LGP in the RA, then he came out of the RA and re-established LGP. Once he did that he was okay.

JRut's post jarred my memory since the RA rule says a player can't establish initial LGP in the RA. It doesn't say establishing outside of the RA then maintaining into the RA is illegal, which makes sense because it would severely hamper a team's ability to play defense.

Again, if any NCAAM officials can check Arbiter from December of 2011 you probably have the same update we did.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Here is the rule in the rulebook.

4-61...

Peace

Still doesn't answer the question...what does it take for a secondary defender to become the primary defender?

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Still doesn't answer the question...what does it take for a secondary defender to become the primary defender?

One scenario: A1 is driving towards the basket. B2 sets up in the RA as a secondary defender. A1 stops continuous movement towards the basket. A1 then continues the drive towards the basket. B2 is no longer a secondary defender because A1 stopped his/her drive.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

One scenario: A1 is driving towards the basket. B2 sets up in the RA as a secondary defender. A1 stops continuous movement towards the basket. A1 then continues the drive towards the basket. B2 is no longer a secondary defender because A1 stopped his/her drive.

Fine. That is easy, but what if the defender sets up outside the RA by 1-2 feet, a dribbler at the top of the key beats his man, and then the defender, the only one in the lane, steps back so they have a heel on the line. The dribbler comes at them and turning and shifting but that defender moves to stay in their path and after 4-5 steps there is contact. Is that a secondary defender or primary?

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Fine. That is easy, but what if the defender sets up outside the RA by 1-2 feet, a dribbler at the top of the key beats his man, and then the defender, the only one in the lane, steps back so they have a heel on the line. The dribbler comes at them and turning and shifting but that defender moves to stay in their path and after 4-5 steps there is contact. Is that a secondary defender or primary?

That's where my post from 2:24 EST kicks in. The NCAAW interp is that in this scenario B2 is not a SD because they established LGP outside of the RA. The rule still allows them to play defense as opposed to letting A1 blow by them.

I can only guess that it's the same in NCAAM but I'd feel better if an NCAAM's official confirmed that for me.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Fine. That is easy, but what if the defender sets up outside the RA by 1-2 feet, a dribbler at the top of the key beats his man, and then the defender, the only one in the lane, steps back so they have a heel on the line. The dribbler comes at them and turning and shifting but that defender moves to stay in their path and after 4-5 steps there is contact. Is that a secondary defender or primary?

Well, it's a secondary defender, but it's still a charge. To be a block (in this type of play, not a blanket statement), the INITIAL LGP must be inside the RA.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Still doesn't answer the question...what does it take for a secondary defender to become the primary defender?

I thought Article 3 covered that possibility. Otherwise the definition seems clear to me. But I can see where you are going with this on some level. I would think that on a switch or something that takes place where a player is not driving to the basket, you could become the new primary defender other than what is listed.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I would think that on a switch or something that takes place where a player is not driving to the basket, you could become the new primary defender other than what is listed.

Peace

Exactly. At some point, a player has to have a way to change from being a secondary defender to being a primary defender. If not, everyone could end up being a secondary defender forever with no way out. So, how long does a player have to be the one covering the opponent and at what distance in order be consider a new primary defender?