Michigan v. Minnesota

[APG]

Was asked to post these 3 plays:

[SNIPERBBB]

What was the final call on the elbow? At worst it looks like a common foul(NFHS).

Second play...I can hear a coach 3 miles away screaming for the (non-existant) foul.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

What was the final call on the elbow? At worst it looks like a common foul(NFHS).
(non-existant) foul.

Also curious as to what the final call was on that play. I don't see how common foul is an option in NFHS. Contact above the shoulders as a result of swinging the elbow is at minimum intentional.

This play however, involves elbow movement that is a natural part of passing the basketball. I find it very dubious to penalize the offensive player in this situation but it is an interesting play based on the wording of the rule and point of emphasis.

[JRutledge]

There was no call on the play and properly so. It was not very inadvertent and making a pass. They looked at the monitor it to see if anything took place and ruled nothing should be called.

Peace

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

This play however, involves elbow movement that is a natural part of passing the basketball. I find it very dubious to penalize the offensive player in this situation but it is an interesting play based on the wording of the rule and point of emphasis.

That's my thinking too. I dont think this is what the NFHS is wanting to address with the elbow issue. I think they are worried about the "chicken wing", not this play.

[jalons]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

Also curious as to what the final call was on that play. I don't see how common foul is an option in NFHS. Contact above the shoulders as a result of swinging the elbow is at minimum intentional.

This play however, involves elbow movement that is a natural part of passing the basketball. I find it very dubious to penalize the offensive player in this situation but it is an interesting play based on the wording of the rule and point of emphasis.

I know the NCAA-W have determined you can have incidental contact with a moving elbow. Not ALL contact with a moving elbow is a foul. This was the first point in the Major Officiating Concerns for this season. I believe this is a perfect example of this.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by jalons

I know the NCAA-W have determined you can have incidental contact with a moving elbow. Not ALL contact with a moving elbow is a foul. This was the first point in the Major Officiating Concerns for this season. I believe this is a perfect example of this.

I agree. This was absolutely incidental and a no call at any level.

I was just replying to the poster who said this was "at worse a common foul in NFHS." If you are going to call a foul here, which you shouldn't, but if you do; it cannot be a common foul per the rule. It must be at least intentional.

AndI can easily see some of my colleagues at the HS level calling this intentional because they are taking the elbow rule and POE too literally.

I think there will need to be some further clarification to the rule moving forward.

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

I agree. This was absolutely incidental and a no call at any level.

I was just replying to the poster who said this was "at worse a common foul in NFHS." If you are going to call a foul here, which you shouldn't, but if you do; it cannot be a common foul per the rule. It must be at least intentional.

AndI can easily see some of my colleagues at the HS level calling this intentional because they are taking the elbow rule and POE too literally.

I think there will need to be some further clarification to the rule moving forward.

There is no "per the rule" here(NFHS), because this only exists as a POE and powerpoint presentation.

[ODog]

Originally Posted by APG

Was asked to post these 3 plays:

Why did the person who asked you want Plays 2 and 3 posted?

[OKREF]

I have nothing on all 3 plays.

[APG]

Originally Posted by ODog

Why did the person who asked you want Plays 2 and 3 posted?

Examples of good no calls

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by APG

Examples of good no calls

What is the call after the elbow in the first play? Did they call a block on Blue 1 near the basket? L and C both have a foul. Not quite sure what that signal is that the L had.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

What is the call after the elbow in the first play? Did they call a block on Blue 1 near the basket? L and C both have a foul. Not quite sure what that signal is that the L had.

The L was trying to say the defender wasn't vertical. His signal looked ridiculous as given, the right signal, if it had actually been the right call, would be illegal use of hands. But he was in a horrible position to determine that anyway and got it wrong IMO. The defender may well have committed a block and that may be what the C had but given that the L was eager to make a call with a non-existant signal and the C held, we'll never know.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The L was trying to say the defender wasn't vertical. His signal looked ridiculous as given, the right signal, if it had actually been the right call, would be illegal use of hands. But he was in a horrible position to determine that anyway and got it wrong IMO. The defender may well have committed a block and that may be what the C had but given that the L was eager to make a call with a non-existant signal and the C held, we'll never know.

No problem with the L making the call. Look at where the players were at the time of the foul -- at the top of the restricted area circle -- if the L can't get a proper angle and make this call he shouldn't be out there. It's a good second whistle from the C, but in the games I work we're giving that to the L that deep in the paint all day long.

And it's clearly a foul -- the arms are down, he commits the foul, and then he gets the arms vertical -- they may have ended up that way, but they weren't that way when he fouled the player.

I also have no problem with the signal, but I've always been a proponent of getting away from the five or six signals in the chart and using more descriptive signals, so of course I would say that.

[APG]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

What is the call after the elbow in the first play? Did they call a block on Blue 1 near the basket? L and C both have a foul. Not quite sure what that signal is that the L had.

He called a foul for the defender not being vertical. Now what he used was not an approved signal, but I don't have a real big problem with the signal as it more aptly described what he called the defender for.