Elbow contact above the shoulders.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by jeremy341a

I still claim if stationary ...

Stationary? It's all relative. My little corner of Connecticut is rotating, east to west, at a speed of 700 miles per hour, while we're all on a planet moving at a speed of 67,000 miles per hour around our closest star. Is you head spinning yet? Anybody need any Dramamine?

[jeremy341a]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Stationary? It's all relative. My little corner of Connecticut is rotating, east to west, at a speed of 700 miles per hour, while we're all on a planet moving at a speed of 67,000 miles per hour around our closest star. Is you head spinning yet? Anybody need any Dramamine?

I agree to this and I am also fine with it being interperted as stationary. However if the pivioting elbow is indeed to be ruled as stationary then we do not need 3 levels in the POE: stationary, moving, and excessive. We only need two levels of stationary and excessive.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by jeremy341a

I agree to this and I am also fine with it being interperted as stationary. However if the pivioting elbow is indeed to be ruled as stationary then we do not need 3 levels in the POE: stationary, moving, and excessive. We only need two levels of stationary and excessive.

Not true.
Contact with a stationary elbow( elbow moving at the same speed as torso) may be a common foul or nothing.

If the elbow is moving faster than the torso, but not excessive, that would be intentional.

If it is excessive, it can be intentional or flagrant personal foul.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by OKREF

If the elbow is moving faster than the torso, but not excessive, that would be intentional.

Elbows moving faster than the torso is by definition "excessive." 4-24-8a.

That's (one of the) the problem(s) with the FED interp / wording. Maybe "moving" = "stationary" and "excessive" in one rule <> "excessive" in another.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Elbows moving faster than the torso is by definition "excessive." 4-24-8a.

That's (one of the) the problem(s) with the FED interp / wording. Maybe "moving" = "stationary" and "excessive" in one rule <> "excessive" in another.

True. I can just go by what my state director of officials has told me. The problem is the wording of the rule.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by OKREF

The problem is the wording of the rule.

Disagree. I believe that the wording of the 2012-13 NFHS point of emphasis is quite clear, it's the different local interpretations of those words that's the problem. It's a problem of interpretation, and consistent enforcement, right here in my little corner of Connecticut.

[jeremy341a]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Not true.
Contact with a stationary elbow( elbow moving at the same speed as torso) may be a common foul or nothing.

If the elbow is moving faster than the torso, but not excessive, that would be intentional.

If it is excessive, it can be intentional or flagrant personal foul.

This by definition is excessive.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Not true.
Contact with a stationary elbow( elbow moving at the same speed as torso) may be a common foul or nothing.

If the elbow is moving faster than the torso, but not excessive, that would be intentional.

If it is excessive, it can be intentional or flagrant personal foul.

Elbow moving at the same speed MAY also be Intentional...if the offensive player knows they are there and pivots and puts that elbow on the face anyway, you could certainly call that Int.

[JRutledge]

If you call the foul on the defenders that are hanging and grabbing at the ball or arms of the ball handler, then you might not have to worry about whether the arms are stationary or moving excessively.

Peace

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If you call the foul on the defenders that are hanging and grabbing at the ball or arms of the ball handler, then you might not have to worry about whether the arms are stationary or moving excessively.

Peace

Where did this come from?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Where did this come from?

We were told this in NCAA meetings and videos for a couple of years now to not ignore many fouls which often causes a player to swing their elbows in the first place. It is even something that is often talked about in pre-games in the locker room on how to call these plays.

Peace

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If you call the foul on the defenders that are hanging and grabbing at the ball or arms of the ball handler, then you might not have to worry about whether the arms are stationary or moving excessively.

Peace

I brought this up at a rules meeting. I think if we get them off when the defense is really on the offense, it will help.

[jeremy341a]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If you call the foul on the defenders that are hanging and grabbing at the ball or arms of the ball handler, then you might not have to worry about whether the arms are stationary or moving excessively.

Peace

I can't call what didnt' happen in this case. Defenders arms are straight up in the air. I do agree in general the defenders get away with too much contact and calling that would help to avoid these situations. However they really don't happen that much.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by jeremy341a

I can't call what didnt' happen in this case. Defenders arms are straight up in the air. I do agree in general the defenders get away with too much contact and calling that would help to avoid these situations. However they really don't happen that much.

I did not say make up something, I said call the first foul. Often players react to players being all over them and we ignore those fouls because the player did not lose the ball or we call a held ball after a lot of contact took place. If you call the first foul you likely stop the frustration of throwing their elbows to get away and then you do not have to worry about calling an intentional foul or flagrant as a result. That is all I am saying.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Elbow moving at the same speed MAY also be Intentional...if the offensive player knows they are there and pivots and puts that elbow on the face anyway, you could certainly call that Int.

That is what I have based on the OP...elbows extended and twisting rapidly. That is an intentional foul.