Hadn't Seen this Before

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

That's simple. The T is on the first player to enter the opposing team's huddle.



First, one situation has nothing to do with the other.

But this answer is simple as well. If a team isn't ready at the second horn, you go with the resuming play procedure. Whistle, count 2 seconds, whistle and put the ball on the floor.

The rules don't allow a warning to be issued in this situation.

Whether Team A delays in returning to the floor or not, Team B has no right to enter their huddle.

And if you raise a stink, I can handle you, too.



Again, one has nothing to do with the other.

I'm not asking this to be smart, but have you had this happen before? I haven't had someone "go into the huddle" of the other team, but it would be an interesting situation. I just don't think I would give a T for this, even after this thread.

I think one does have something to do with the other. One team breaks the huddle after the first horn and one doesn't. If an official dictates where players can and cannot go while the other team is still in the huddle I think it is the right thing to do to end the timeout appropriately.

A coach could say a variation of the paragraph above. It could start as a calm remark/question from a coach all the way to the coach yelling to put the ball on the floor. I am wondering if someone would go as far as giving a coach a T for unsportingly asking for the official to do what the official is supposed to do.

I had a college game on Saturday and we talked about something similar to this in pregame. Some things just will not get done until you see guys doing it on TV...and that will probably not happen.

Camron, I will answer your question. After considering this situation, I think I would position myself between the players and the huddle and that is about as far as I would go after the first horn. That could mean the players are physically 4 or 5 feet away. I'm not sure how unsporting it would be to be close to the huddle since I would actively be interrupting the coach anyway to get them out of the huddle.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by tomegun

...Camron, I will answer your question. After considering this situation, I think I would position myself between the players and the huddle and that is about as far as I would go after the first horn. That could mean the players are physically 4 or 5 feet away. I'm not sure how unsporting it would be to be close to the huddle since I would actively be interrupting the coach anyway to get them out of the huddle.

Yep, after the 1st horn an official should be by the huddle anyway reminding them to come out on the 2nd horn. I don't see an opposing player ignoring my presense.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Yep, after the 1st horn an official should be by the huddle anyway reminding them to come out on the 2nd horn. I don't see an opposing player ignoring my presense.

Our state wants us near that huddle to get them out and from what I understand this was not a NF mandate. That might be the issue for many. This is a non-issue from the standpoint of being near the huddle when this likely happens.

Peace

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by tomegun

I'm not asking this to be smart, but have you had this happen before? I haven't had someone "go into the huddle" of the other team, but it would be an interesting situation. I just don't think I would give a T for this, even after this thread.

No. I have had to deal with an opposing player standing by a player who were in discussion with their coach during a FT and it got ugly. Obviously, players can go anywhere on the floor during a FT, with the exception of restricted FT areas and that's what I had to communicate to the coach.

Based on that experience, I'm not going to allow a player to enter another team's TO huddle. We remain near the huddle after the 1st horn until they break or until just before the second horn sounds. But if a player did violate the huddle, I have no problem making the call.

I think one does have something to do with the other. One team breaks the huddle after the first horn and one doesn't. If an official dictates where players can and cannot go while the other team is still in the huddle I think it is the right thing to do to end the timeout appropriately.

A player can never go in an opposing team's timeout huddle. The huddle has nothing to do with the throw-in.

A coach could say a variation of the paragraph above. It could start as a calm remark/question from a coach all the way to the coach yelling to put the ball on the floor. I am wondering if someone would go as far as giving a coach a T for unsportingly asking for the official to do what the official is supposed to do.

A coach isn't going to have that issue with me. First, we remain with th huddle to get them out and we use the RPP I posted above if they don't come out.

But again, an opponent entering a team's huddle has nothing to do with the RPP.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

...The huddle has nothing to do with the throw-in.

A coach isn't going to have that issue with me. First, we remain with th huddle to get them out and we use the RPP I posted above if they don't come out.

But again, an opponent entering a team's huddle has nothing to do with the RPP.

Restricting where a player on a team that has broken the huddle after the first horn and the RPP may very well be associated with one another. If you officiate in an area where coaches wouldn't associate the two good for you. In my experience, in several states, it would not be unthinkable for a coach to tie the two together and make comments about them.

By saying a coach isn't going to have that issue with you, are you saying that you follow the RPP to the letter, every time, in every game? To make such a claim would mean that 1) both teams come out of the huddle and are ready to play at the second horn or 2) you use the RPP if they don't...every time.

I agree with Camron and Rich, this is a grey area, but your comments make it seem like it is black and white. For me it is a grey area and coaches/players don't see parts of the game in isolation and react accordingly.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Restricting where a player on a team that has broken the huddle after the first horn and the RPP may very well be associated with one another. If you officiate in an area where coaches wouldn't associate the two good for you. In my experience, in several states, it would not be unthinkable for a coach to tie the two together and make comments about them.

By saying a coach isn't going to have that issue with you, are you saying that you follow the RPP to the letter, every time, in every game? To make such a claim would mean that 1) both teams come out of the huddle and are ready to play at the second horn or 2) you use the RPP if they don't...every time.

I agree with Camron and Rich, this is a grey area, but your comments make it seem like it is black and white. For me it is a grey area and coaches/players don't see parts of the game in isolation and react accordingly.

I know I'm not responding to what I posted, but what the heck...I'm trying to avoid a paper I'm writing for my day job that's boring me silly, so here goes:

I have said in the past that I'm not exactly pushy when it comes to resuming play after a timeout. As long as the team is breaking the huddle at the second horn and moving back towards the court, I'm not going to do anything but wait and restart the game. If a team delays more than that, I'm likely going to go to the coach and tell him I don't want to put the ball on the floor, please get them out quicker or I'll have to do that. Then I'll do it....when the team's on offense.

I see so much more time wasted with foul reporting, free throw administration, and with other game situations that have nothing to do with the RPP, that I'm not terribly bothered by this. I think I put the ball down once or twice last season in about 60 games and haven't done so at all this season -- and no opposing coach has said anything. I recognize that it isn't that way in other parts of the country and if the coaches are used to such a procedure (like apparent BktBallRef's area), then everyone sing from the same hymn book. But I'd rather work with the coaches as best as I can before I have to resort to measures that will guarantee to annoy them, like putting the ball on the floor is likely to do.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Restricting where a player on a team that has broken the huddle after the first horn and the RPP may very well be associated with one another.

Not sure why you can't grasp this but the problem in the OP wasn't that a player was restricted from going somewhere on the floor. The problem was that the player entered another team's huddle. I don't care whether a horn has blown or not, that's unsporting.

By saying a coach isn't going to have that issue with you, are you saying that you follow the RPP to the letter, every time, in every game? To make such a claim would mean that 1) both teams come out of the huddle and are ready to play at the second horn or 2) you use the RPP if they don't...every time.

I'm saying that I have NEVER had a problem in this situation in the past. And since past performance is a predictor of future behavior, I don't anticipate having an issue with this in the future.

I agree with Camron and Rich, this is a grey area, but your comments make it seem like it is black and white. For me it is a grey area and coaches/players don't see parts of the game in isolation and react accordingly.

A player entering the opposing team's huddle is black and white for me. If it's grey for you, that's just wonderful. I'm not anywhere near as concerned about how you will react as you seem to be about me.

And for the final time...

A player entering an opposing team's huddle during a timeout is a TOTALLY AND COMPLETELY different issue than a team breaking their huddle after the second horn. One has nothing to do with the other.

I'm done.

[tomegun]

Well, before I'm done I would like to say how happy I am that times have changed. In the past, you would have your friends on your side and then they would close the thread as soon as you have your final say. The times have changed for real.

I have never had this problem either so I guess my past performance is a predictor of future behavior too. In my circle of officiating, we often toss around "what ifs" and go down that path of thinking. I guess you either don't do that or abruptly say that won't happen to you or chronological events aren't related...even though they happen in order.

You didn't answer my question about if teams break the huddle for you all the time after the first horn and/or if you use the RPP all the time if they aren't ready to play all the time after the second horn. I would bet a large sum of money neither happens so you operate in a grey area too.

I am not concerned about how you will react because we are different officials with different styles. From what I know (from your cyber friends) your style has been successful for you and I know my style has been successful for me. I have no problem stating that, but for some reason you think that your way is superior.

Saying things like "...for the final time..." indicates you think your word is final. If you think a coach will not comment on events that possibly happen one right after the other you have worked in ideal situations. I haven't lived such a charmed officiating life and I can easily see how coaches could possibly connect those dots regardless of how you or I may think they are connected.

I don't think I objected about someone entering the huddle. If I did, let me retract that part of the conversation. However, if I am the official who is on that side of the court, players aren't going to "enter the huddle". My preventive officiating will keep them from committing the unsporting act that you are ready to T up. Maybe that is why I'm not harping on this so much...it wouldn't happen on my watch unless the players push me to the side. At that point, we have a totally different problem.

You have a good evening ringing in the New Year Tony...and I mean that for real.