Possession Arrow question

[rbmartin]

Basketball question from a Baseball guy.
NFHS rules. Jump Ball at beginning of game between Team A and Team B. Ball is tossed into air and is tipped and controlled Adams of Team A. Referee whistles violation and awards the ball to Team B.
Which way do you set the posession arrow?

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by rbmartin

...tipped and controlled Adams of Team A...

Please clarify this part of your question.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by rbmartin

Basketball question from a Baseball guy.
NFHS rules. Jump Ball at beginning of game between Team A and Team B. Ball is tossed into air and is tipped and controlled Adams of Team A. Referee whistles violation and awards the ball to Team B.
Which way do you set the posession arrow?

If you're saying that the team A jumper caught the jump ball after tipping it, and a violation was called for that, then the arrow is set to team A when the ball is placed at the disposal of the B thrower on the resulting throw-in.

[APG]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP

If you're saying that the team A jumper caught the jump ball after tipping it, and a violation was called for that, then the arrow is set to team A when the ball is placed at the disposal of the B thrower on the resulting throw-in.

Had this situation happen in a game today...I'm the R and tossing the ball...jumper tips the ball two times, then catches the ball. U1 had nothing, but I came in with the whistle. Either my table is the most well versed table on setting the possession arrow or what's more than likely, they set the arrow correctly by accident as when I looked to the table after the throw-in was finished, they had it pointed to the correct direction. Heard nothing from the coaches either.

[rbmartin]

Originally Posted by Freddy

Please clarify this part of your question.

The jumper tipped the ball and then caught it without any intervening touches.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rbmartin

The jumper tipped the ball and then caught it without any intervening touches.

Then the arrow gets set to the jumper's team

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

Then the arrow gets set to the jumper's team

Correct.

What makes this slightly confusing to some "veteran" officials is that this wasn't always the way it was done. When the alternating possession arrow was first used in NFHS games, the illegal catch by the jumper was considered a possession, an illegal possession, but, nevertheless, a possession. The offended team, the team that didn't catch the ball, got both the ball, and the arrow. That changed a few years later. No more double jeopardy.

[asdf]

Easiest way to explain this is "the violation does not cost a team the ball and the arrow".

No double hammy on this.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by asdf

No double hammy on this.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

It has "always" (with apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirley; and always in this context means as long as I have been involved in basketball, I started playing when I was nine years old and started officiating when I was nineteen years old) been a violation for the Jumper to gain control of the ball before the Jump Ball ended. When the Alternating Possession Rule (an abomination upon the game) was adopted the powers that be on both the NFHS and NCAA Rules Committees adopted a Casebook Play/Approved Ruling to address this situation.

The RULING stated that A1 established Player Control (and therefore Team Control) and simultaneously committed the aforementioned Jump Ball Violation and that Team B would then receive the ball for a throw-in nearest the spot of the violation and the AP Arrow would be set toward Team B's basket when the ball was placed At The Disposal of Team B for its throw-in for the Jump Ball Violation Penalty. The setting of the AP Arrow is the correct way to set the arrow for a Jump Ball Violation.

This remained the RULING until the 1993-94 season when only the NCAA changed (without Editorial Comment) its Approved Ruling to: That A1 does not establish Player Control (and therefore Team Control) and simultaneously commit the aforementioned Jump Ball Violation. Team B would then receive the ball for a throw-in nearest the spot of the violation and the AP Arrow would be set toward Team A's basket after the Team B's throw-in had ended (this setting of the AP Arrow was in direct conflict with the Rules that stated that the AP Arrow should be set toward Team A's basket when the ball was placed At The Disposal of Team B for its throw-in for the Jump Ball Violation Penalty). The NCAA never addressed this quirk in its RULING.

The NFHS changed its Casebook Play RULING for the 1994-95 season to: That A1 does not establish Player Control (and therefore Team Control) and simultaneously commit the aforementioned Jump Ball Violation. Team B would then receive the ball for a throw-in nearest the spot of the violation and the AP Arrow would be set toward Team A's basket when the ball was placed At The Disposal for Team B or its throw-in for the Jump Ball Violation Penalty.

So ends today's history lesson.

MTD, Sr.

[trojans2545]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

It has "always" (with apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirley; and always in this context means as long as I have been involved in basketball, I started playing when I was nine years old and started officiating when I was nineteen years old) been a violation for the Jumper to gain control of the ball before the Jump Ball ended. When the Alternating Possession Rule (an abomination upon the game) was adopted the powers that be on both the NFHS and NCAA Rules Committees adopted a Casebook Play/Approved Ruling to address this situation.

The RULING stated that A1 established Player Control (and therefore Team Control) and simultaneously committed the aforementioned Jump Ball Violation and that Team B would then receive the ball for a throw-in nearest the spot of the violation and the AP Arrow would be set toward Team B's basket when the ball was placed At The Disposal of Team B for its throw-in for the Jump Ball Violation Penalty. The setting of the AP Arrow is the correct way to set the arrow for a Jump Ball Violation.

This remained the RULING until the 1993-94 season when only the NCAA changed (without Editorial Comment) its Approved Ruling to: That A1 does not establish Player Control (and therefore Team Control) and simultaneously commit the aforementioned Jump Ball Violation. Team B would then receive the ball for a throw-in nearest the spot of the violation and the AP Arrow would be set toward Team A's basket after the Team B's throw-in had ended (this setting of the AP Arrow was in direct conflict with the Rules that stated that the AP Arrow should be set toward Team A's basket when the ball was placed At The Disposal of Team B for its throw-in for the Jump Ball Violation Penalty). The NCAA never addressed this quirk in its RULING.

The NFHS changed its Casebook Play RULING for the 1994-95 season to: That A1 does not establish Player Control (and therefore Team Control) and simultaneously commit the aforementioned Jump Ball Violation. Team B would then receive the ball for a throw-in nearest the spot of the violation and the AP Arrow would be set toward Team A's basket when the ball was placed At The Disposal for Team B or its throw-in for the Jump Ball Violation Penalty.

So ends today's history lesson.

MTD, Sr.

In honor of every college student these past couple of weeks, "Prof. MTD, will this be on the final? It's not on the study guide!"

[rekent]

Originally Posted by trojans2545

In honor of every college student these past couple of weeks, "Prof. MTD, will this be on the final? It's not on the study guide!"

Ha! I only wish they still gave us study guides (or profs were as helpful and explained as well as MTD)...

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Rule 4 will be on the Final Exam because everything starts with Rule 4.

MTD, Sr.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

The Alternating Possession Rule (an abomination upon the game).

Shut up.

[BktBallRef]

Prior to the 2002-2003 season, the NFHS changed rule 4-12-1 which added an exception to the definition of control by a player when, during a jump ball, a jumper catches the ball prior to the ball touching the floor or a non-jumper.

Previous to this rule change, if a jumper caught the jump ball, the opponent got the ball for a throw-in and the arrow was set to their basket.

With the 2002 rule change, a violation no longer resulted in Team B losing the arrow for the next AP situation. We discussed this situation on this forum.

JUMPER CATCHING A TOSS NOT CONSIDERED PLAYER CONTROL (4-12-1): An exception was added to the definition of control by a player when, during a jump ball, a jumper catches the ball prior to the ball touching the floor or a non-jumper. By rule, and previously reinforced in a Case Book situation, if a jumper caught the ball on a jump ball, that player had controlled the ball, but had violated by catching the tap. The committee felt the penalty of awarding the ball and the arrow to the opponent was too severe. This change simplifies the rule by only considering the violation by the jumper catching the tap, resulting in the opposing team receiving the throw-in, and the arrow set toward the team that violated.

So the actual rule change occurred on 2002, not in 1994.