Originally Posted by Rich (Post 866204)

Yes, I would. It's not a nit I'm willing to pick. If A is holding onto the ball and uses the ball to displace the defender, to me it's no different than a player using his hand/arm to push off.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 866272)

Tic-Tock.

A1 dribbling at a decent rate of speed, stops dribble, loses his balance, sticks the ball out with 2 hands (without dragging his pivot foot) in reaction to losing his balance and the ball contacts B1 who stumbles backwards as a result.

So this is a PC foul?

Originally Posted by Thumper68 (Post 866169)

I saw this in a 6th grade boy’s parochial league game last night. A1 gets the ball in high post. B1 has very tight legal guarding position, up tight on A1 almost touching torso to torso. B2 comes up behind and also is guarding A1. A1 takes the ball, places it in B1’s chest and pushes him away, attempts to dribble away and B2 promptly steals the ball and we are going the other way. As a 3rd year official I had not seen this yet and it happened so fast that I had no call, and B2 now has the ball. This seems to be a foul, but is it just a team control pushing foul, or is this a player control foul? I know that 4-7-2(d) states “The player with the ball may not push the torso of the guard to an advantage to pass, shoot, or dribble.”, but does it apply since A1 used the ball to push. Hind sight has me thinking that is was a player control foul, but I would like some input.

Thanks,

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 866271)

Nah, the first bloody nose will result in a Technical Foul, probably Flagrant.

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 866202)

So you're calling a pc foul for contact with the ball?

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 866272)

Tic-Tock.

A1 dribbling at a decent rate of speed, stops dribble, loses his balance, sticks the ball out with 2 hands (without dragging his pivot foot) in reaction to losing his balance and the ball contacts B1 who stumbles backwards as a result.

So this is a PC foul?

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 866281)

Yes In this instance, the ball is effectively an extension of the hand.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 866272)

Tic-Tock.

A1 dribbling at a decent rate of speed, stops dribble, loses his balance, sticks the ball out with 2 hands (without dragging his pivot foot) in reaction to losing his balance and the ball contacts B1 who stumbles backwards as a result.

So this is a PC foul?

Originally Posted by rwest (Post 866293)

Adam, are you going to ignore the displacement just because the offensive player used the ball instead of his/her arm/hand?

Originally Posted by APG (Post 866248)

I think a strict reading would mean this is a technical foul, and I used to subscribe to the philosophy that this is a T or nothing.

If I were presented with this play though now, I'd go with the personal foul.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 866298)

Nope. I'm only calling a foul when a player is pushed with the ball when it is clear the offensive player was using it as an extension of their arms explicitly for the purpose of moving their opponent. Otherwise, it is nothing....I'm not treating it quite the same as other situations.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 866297)

I've heard that as a concept before. I don't see me calling a PC foul in this situation.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 866306)

I want to say that years ago in a Men's Wreck League game I called a T on a player for intentionally hitting a shorter opponent on the top of the head with the ball.

Originally Posted by rwest (Post 866293)

Adam, are you going to ignore the displacement just because the offensive player used the ball instead of his/her arm/hand?

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 866213)

Yeah, I'd call it depending on the severity. I probably would have questioned myself later, but ...

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 866246)

Had a short but somewhat spirited discussion on this subject several years ago involving now legendary forum members. http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...push-ball.html

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 347999)

While a live ball is being held by A-1 in his/her frontcourt:

1) A-1 intentionally throws the ball at B-1's head.

2) A-1, uses the ball to push B-1, to try to gain an advantage by creating some space between himself/herself and the defender, B-1.

What are the correct calls? Personal or technical ? Common, intentional, or flagrant ? Do the calls change if A-1 is an inbounder ?

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 347999)

While a live ball is being held by A-1 in his/her frontcourt:

1) A-1 intentionally throws the ball at B-1's head.

2) A-1, uses the ball to push B-1, to try to gain an advantage by creating some space between himself/herself and the defender, B-1.

What are the correct calls? Personal or technical ? Common, intentional, or flagrant ? Do the calls change if A-1 is an inbounder ?