Pushing defender away with ball?
 

I saw this in a 6th grade boy’s parochial league game last night. A1 gets the ball in high post. B1 has very tight legal guarding position, up tight on A1 almost touching torso to torso. B2 comes up behind and also is guarding A1. A1 takes the ball, places it in B1’s chest and pushes him away, attempts to dribble away and B2 promptly steals the ball and we are going the other way. As a 3rd year official I had not seen this yet and it happened so fast that I had no call, and B2 now has the ball. This seems to be a foul, but is it just a team control pushing foul, or is this a player control foul? I know that 4-7-2(d) states “The player with the ball may not push the torso of the guard to an advantage to pass, shoot, or dribble.”, but does it apply since A1 used the ball to push. Hind sight has me thinking that is was a player control foul, but I would like some input.

Thanks,

I've got nothing.

Me too. What advantage did A1 gain? Contact that yields no advantage — and in this instance disadvantaged the player — is generally not a foul.

Sounds like a PC to me--A1 cleared space to attempt to make a move--pushing B1 away may hinder him in filling the lane for a fast break after the steal.

While there was no direct body contact, it can't be fair that B1 is displaced nonetheless.

The immediate turnover negates a whistle, but without it, I think you have to at least consider calling a foul.

I'd like to see a case play that describes using the ball to clear space to move.

What if A1 were driving down the lane and stuck the ball out and B1 fell down from the contact with the ball?

Hmm, I guess neither one of you understand this type of play. Are you saying no foul because B2 took the ball? If I am B1 and I know that someone can use the ball like this and you wouldn't call it, I would use that to my advantage.

What if A1 does this again and instead of taking the ball cleanly B1 hacks A1 across the arm as he/she takes the ball?
What if A1 puts the ball in B1's face next time instead of his/her chest?
What if a slight push with the ball like this is used to create space to shoot?

Even a timely word of caution to A1 would help this situation.

If I was a player and knew this was allowable, I would push the envelope until you called a foul on me then I would ask you what your standard is for calling this a foul. Can I push the defender away a foot, two feet, one step, two steps, I can only do it if I get the ball stolen, only if the defender creates a jump ball?

So you're calling a pc foul for contact with the ball?

Yes, I would. It's not a nit I'm willing to pick. If A is holding onto the ball and uses the ball to displace the defender, to me it's no different than a player using his hand/arm to push off.

Tom, if he gets an advantage from the contact, then it's a foul. Surely we agree about that.

It didn't seem that A1 got an advantage in the OP. If I'm wrong about that — which is a bit HTBT — then call the foul, but it's silly to quibble about judgment unless we have some video that could help settle it.

Depending on the severity, you aren't? Again, if I was a player that used every edge - and I did - I would leave a trail of defenders with bloody noses as a coasted to the basket. Hmmm, that may cause someone to get upset and want to fight me for popping them in the nose with the ball. Would they have a reason for being upset?

Where do you draw the line?

I agree that it is a play we would need to see, but what if the second defender wasn't there to take the ball? Is the act itself something you want to be a part of your game? Even with the steal by B2 I would say something to A1 about this at least.

Yeah, I'd call it depending on the severity. I probably would have questioned myself later, but ...

I want to lean toward this being a PC foul as well. If we can penalize A with a technical foul for using the ball illegally (against the spirit of the game/rules) in an instance, shouldn't we be able to for using the ball to gain an illegal advantage in this situation?

Yea, at first I didn't really have an answer, but the more I think about it, I would lean to a PC.

This was me on the court last night! ^

I think that if it had happened again I would have a foul. Most likely PC. I think that if the second defender wasn't there that he would have gained an advantage. The push moved B1 a step back, giving A1 enough room to start a dribble.

I've seen it and have called it a PC before.

Conversely would we call a push on a defender for pushing the ball into A1, knocking him back?

Ignore the steal for the sake of this dicussion...it is clouding the waters of the main point....can a player commit a foul with the ball as a tool or extension of their arms/hands.

I say yes.

The rule actually doesn't restrict the contact to only being body-to-body. It just says contact with an opponent that hinders.... That contact could very well be with the ball...and I'd call it as such if it were a purposeful action by the ball handler.

On the 2nd question, no. The defense has the right to try to knock the ball out of the offensive player's hands even if it knocks them over.

Defender tries to knock ball out of offenses hands, only hits the ball and the force causes the offensive player to fall. Foul, travel, or nothing?

what other option would you consider?

Absolutely.

We all agree that this HTBT play. But you can absolutely call a PC foul in this situation. I called one last year where the offensively used the ball to push his defender back 2 or 3 feet. He now had space to release his shot. I called it without hesitation.

That's a good question. The defender has a right to contact the ball and if an offensive player holding the ball leaves it open enough for the defender to contact it and he falls down as a result, I have a travel. Hard to imagine a case where it would be a foul on the defender unless it involves some extra and likely unsporting behavior. I suppose a player could be holding the ball and a defender who is unable to knock it loose decides to just shove the ball into the player. HTBT situation but I've never seen that.

I actually had a play similar to the OP in the first game of the HS season this year. A1 goes up and over B1 for an offensive rebound. Not enough contact for a displacement foul but upon landing A1 takes the ball and gives a huge shove in the back to B1 to clear space and attempt a shot.

I had a foul but did give the push mechanic at the table when in fact I had a PC.

Had a short but somewhat spirited discussion on this subject several years ago involving now legendary forum members.

http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...push-ball.html

I think a strict reading would mean this is a technical foul, and I used to subscribe to the philosophy that this is a T or nothing.

If I were presented with this play though now, I'd go with the personal foul.

On the court at the time I was trying to decide between PC and push (team control). The more I thought it out it seemed that a push (team control) was really PC. My initial thought was a PC foul, but my lower level of experience made me hesitate, the ball was stolen, and the moment was gone. Now I realize that my initial reaction was correct thanks to this discussion. If/when I see this again it will be a PC foul.

I don't think it really matters. A player control foul, is a team control foul. Either way it was on the offense and no shoots would be given.

Doesn't matter if you called team or player control in this situation...either way you aren't shooting free throws.

Nah, the first bloody nose will result in a Technical Foul, probably Flagrant.

Tic-Tock.

A1 dribbling at a decent rate of speed, stops dribble, loses his balance, sticks the ball out with 2 hands (without dragging his pivot foot) in reaction to losing his balance and the ball contacts B1 who stumbles backwards as a result.

So this is a PC foul?

This seems clear to me as well. I don't see how you can look at it any other way.

Yes In this instance, the ball is effectively an extension of the hand.

Those Catholics

Exactly my point. Where is the line?

So, you are ignoring the displacement?
 

Adam, are you going to ignore the displacement just because the offensive player used the ball instead of his/her arm/hand?

I've heard that as a concept before. I don't see me calling a PC foul in this situation.

Nope. I'm only calling a foul when a player is pushed with the ball when it is clear the offensive player was using it as an extension of their arms explicitly for the purpose of moving their opponent. Otherwise, it is nothing....I'm not treating it quite the same as other situations.

I was understanding Adam's point to be whether this is a personal foul versus a technical foul...

Well I had this somewhat related gem a few years ago...http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...tentional.html

I can live with that. But I'm thinking that if I see someone intentionally push a ball into someone with enough force to cause that person to fall back then I'll have an Unsporting T. Otherwise I would have nothing.

I want to say that years ago in a Men's Wreck League game I called a T on a player for intentionally hitting a shorter opponent on the top of the head with the ball.

Conceivably, possibly due to poor positioning, :) it might be difficult to see whether the actual contact took place with the ball, the bare hand, or both.
Displacement/advantage gained seems to be the important part, in my opinion.

I had that exact thing in the link I just posted...girl's Freshman. I went intentional but flagrant T might've been better.

Keep reading:

Legendary ??? Would Prefer Esteemed, But I'll Take Legendary ...
 

I love quoting great people, here's a good one from the thread:

This post never got answered. Is the microphone on?

Since you’re being persistent – and I’ve never been accused of acting on things quickly:

In play #1 the description pretty much tells you what to call. It’s at least an IF and quite possibly a flagrant. I don’t think going with a common foul in that case would be an option for me.

In play #2 I’d call a PC. A1 used the ball to create contact that put B1 at a disadvantage.

In either case, A1 being the thrower on an inbounds pass doesn’t make a difference in the call.

On 1, I'd go with a technical foul, probably flagrant (intentionally at the defender's head.)

Not an option. In the OP it's live-ball contact ;)

Sorry, I was thinking of Billy's post that you had quoted:

Play 1 here is a technical foul, likely flagrant.

Horton Hatches The Egg ...
 

Hey. The question was only posted for seven years. I'm a patient guy. Persistent, but patient. BillyMac, and an elephant, never forget. Now, where are my car keys?

http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.47803...13869&pid=15.1