Sideline position?

Adam · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 10, 2012, 12:21pm

Here we go again. B1 does not need LGP if he isn't moving, except maybe in this one case play.

I've got him legal if he's stationary. Others have a block regardless.

OKREF · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 10, 2012, 12:30pm

If the defense has one foot out of bounds and one foot in bounds, I and every official I know here has a block on any contact.

Case Book

4.23.3

A1 is dribbling near the sideline when B1 obtains legal guarding position B1 stays in the path of A1 but in doing so has (A) one foot touching the sideline......

Ruling: In (A) B1 is called for a blocking foul because a player may not be out of bounds and obtain or maintain legal guarding position.

I really don't understand why this is difficult. If a defensive player is on the line or out of bounds and there is contact it is on the defense.

just another ref · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 10, 2012, 12:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by OKREF

If the defense has one foot out of bounds and one foot in bounds, I and every official I know here has a block on any contact.

Case Book

4.23.3

A1 is dribbling near the sideline when B1 obtains legal guarding position B1 stays in the path of A1 but in doing so has (A) one foot touching the sideline......

Ruling: In (A) B1 is called for a blocking foul because a player may not be out of bounds and obtain or maintain legal guarding position.

I really don't understand why this is difficult. If a defensive player is on the line or out of bounds and there is contact it is on the defense.

Not every foul is about legal guarding position. B1 is standing near the bench, getting instructions from his coach. It just so happens he has one foot on the line. Dribbler A1 comes down the sideline and plows into B1.
B1 is stationary. B1 has done nothing wrong. This is not a foul on B1.

OKREF · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 10, 2012, 12:41pm

Then it is a violation on B1 for leaving the court under is own voilition?

Adam · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 10, 2012, 12:45pm

The rule says B1 is entitled to his spot on the court. He's either entitled to this spot, or he's not on the court. IMO, if one foot on the line isn't enough to call the violation for leaving the court, then a stationary B1 isn't liable for the contact.

maven · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 10, 2012, 01:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam

The rule says B1 is entitled to his spot on the court. He's either entitled to this spot, or he's not on the court. IMO, if one foot on the line isn't enough to call the violation for leaving the court, then a stationary B1 isn't liable for the contact.

His spot is not on the court, since by rule his location is not inbounds.

I agree that this position is insufficient for a "leaving the court" violation (9-3-3), but I disagree with your reasoning back to having a spot on the court.

The reason a toe on the line not sufficient for the LTC violation is that touching the boundary alone does not constitute leaving.

It does, however, constitute a player being OOB, and thus denies him a legal position on the court. He is not entitled to that spot, and so liable for any contact.

Adam · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 10, 2012, 01:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by maven

His spot is not on the court, since by rule his location is not inbounds.

I agree that this position is insufficient for a "leaving the court" violation (9-3-3), but I disagree with your reasoning back to having a spot on the court.

The reason a toe on the line not sufficient for the LTC violation is that touching the boundary alone does not constitute leaving.

It does, however, constitute a player being OOB, and thus denies him a legal position on the court. He is not entitled to that spot, and so liable for any contact.

How did he get off of the court if he didn't leave?

OKREF · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 10, 2012, 02:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam

The rule says B1 is entitled to his spot on the court. He's either entitled to this spot, or he's not on the court. IMO, if one foot on the line isn't enough to call the violation for leaving the court, then a stationary B1 isn't liable for the contact.

Coach, I know we had a collision there and both players ended up on the floor. Coach, I have a PC foul on you. Yes coach I know he didn't have both feet on the playing court, and I didn't call a violation on him, but your player ran over a guy who was not legally on the court, so it is a PC.

Good luck trying to sell that one.

rockyroad · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 10, 2012, 02:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by OKREF

Coach, I know we had a collision there and both players ended up on the floor. Coach, I have a PC foul on you. Yes coach I know he didn't have both feet on the playing court, and I didn't call a violation on him, but your player ran over a guy who was not legally on the court, so it is a PC.

Good luck trying to sell that one.

So a player is standing there talking to his coach, and the ball handler lowers his shoulder and drills that player square in the back...and you are calling a block because the defender -who never even saw the ball handler coming at him - had his foot on the sideline???

Good luck selling THAT one.

Adam · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 10, 2012, 02:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by OKREF

Coach, I know we had a collision there and both players ended up on the floor. Coach, I have a PC foul on you. Yes coach I know he didn't have both feet on the playing court, and I didn't call a violation on him, but your player ran over a guy who was not legally on the court, so it is a PC.

Good luck trying to sell that one.

'Coach, he's entitled to his spot.'

Easy sell.

Again, he's either on the court, or he left it. I'm done for now.

OKREF · #11 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 10, 2012, 12:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref

Not every foul is about legal guarding position. B1 is standing near the bench, getting instructions from his coach. It just so happens he has one foot on the line. Dribbler A1 comes down the sideline and plows into B1.
B1 is stationary. B1 has done nothing wrong. This is not a foul on B1.

That is a totally different situation than what the OP is addressing.

Adam · #12 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 10, 2012, 12:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by OKREF

That is a totally different situation than what the OP is addressing.

How is it different, by rule?

OKREF · #13 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 10, 2012, 12:52pm

4-37-3

Every player is entitled to a spot ion the playing court, provided the player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent.

They key phrase is playing court. One foot out of bounds means they have no position on the court.

Adam · #14 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 10, 2012, 01:04pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by OKREF

4-37-3

Every player is entitled to a spot ion the playing court, provided the player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent.

They key phrase is playing court. One foot out of bounds means they have no position on the court.

Like I said, unless you're willing to call the violation for leaving the court, I don't think you can say B1 has left the playing court. IOW, you either have a defensive violation (thus an immediate dead ball), or a pc.

MD Longhorn · #15 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 10, 2012, 12:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by OKREF

That is a totally different situation than what the OP is addressing.

Not really.

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