Subbing during FTAs

[Amesman]

Granted, sometimes underlevels especially get loose with reporting subs to the table in a timely manner. But I have to know:

Last night, as T, I disallowed a sub after a made FTA because I felt the coach ran her to the table too late. I felt the sub should have been there by the time I checked the table after the first FTA was converted.

So my question is does 3-3-1c mean that if I check the table for a sub waiting to come in after the first FTA is made and nobody's there, I need to let the sub in anyway if the table buzzes after the 2nd FTA is made? I'm not turning around again to see if someone's at the table while the teams are starting to hustle down the court after the made 2nd FTA.

I realize the scoreboard operator doesn't dictate when subs come in, but his buzzer did stop play before the ball was subsequently inbounded ... And now I realize that one way or another, I probably did commit an error by not allowing the sub in once play was stopped. Or did I? Coach was pretty sarcastic a little while later when he asked if, during a TO, he could sub her in now.

And here I was, feeling pretty good about what I thought was a not-too-bad game last night ...

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by Amesman

Granted, sometimes underlevels especially get loose with reporting subs to the table in a timely manner. But I have to know:

Last night, as T, I disallowed a sub after a made FTA because I felt the coach ran her to the table too late. I felt the sub should have been there by the time I checked the table after the first FTA was converted.

So my question is does 3-3-1c mean that if I check the table for a sub waiting to come in after the first FTA is made and nobody's there, I need to let the sub in anyway if the table buzzes after the 2nd FTA is made? I'm not turning around again to see if someone's at the table while the teams are starting to hustle down the court after the made 2nd FTA.

I realize the scoreboard operator doesn't dictate when subs come in, but his buzzer did stop play before the ball was subsequently inbounded ... And now I realize that one way or another, I probably did commit an error by not allowing the sub in once play was stopped. Or did I? Coach was pretty sarcastic a little while later when he asked if, during a TO, he could sub her in now.

And here I was, feeling pretty good about what I thought was a not-too-bad game last night ...

What if the sub was for the shooter? You're not letting them in? Unless the sub just came out and must wait for a tick, I am letting any sub come in after the second made free throw.

[Amesman]

Originally Posted by OKREF

What if the sub was for the shooter? You're not letting them in? Unless the sub just came out and must wait for a tick, I am letting any sub come in after the second made free throw.

Good point. But sub was not for the shooter, just to clarify. My point might be: If the FT shooter has the ball/is shooting, are we letting a sub in who rushes the table after I've turned my back to the table?

I'm getting the idea I was too tight on this one but would like to know the best interpretation.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Amesman

Granted, sometimes underlevels especially get loose with reporting subs to the table in a timely manner. But I have to know:

Last night, as T, I disallowed a sub after a made FTA because I felt the coach ran her to the table too late. I felt the sub should have been there by the time I checked the table after the first FTA was converted.

So my question is does 3-3-1c mean that if I check the table for a sub waiting to come in after the first FTA is made and nobody's there, I need to let the sub in anyway if the table buzzes after the 2nd FTA is made? I'm not turning around again to see if someone's at the table while the teams are starting to hustle down the court after the made 2nd FTA.

I realize the scoreboard operator doesn't dictate when subs come in, but his buzzer did stop play before the ball was subsequently inbounded ... And now I realize that one way or another, I probably did commit an error by not allowing the sub in once play was stopped. Or did I? Coach was pretty sarcastic a little while later when he asked if, during a TO, he could sub her in now.

And here I was, feeling pretty good about what I thought was a not-too-bad game last night ...

First, you need to do what's standard in your area in terms of the timing. Here, if the player was on his/her way to the table before the ball was bounced to the free-thrower, we'd (probably) allow the sub.

Second, after a FT is made is a valid opportunity to sub. So, if the sub was at the table, ....

And, you probably should know this or take a quick look and let the sub in.

[BillyMac]

The substitute must be at the X when the official is about to make the ball live, that is, about to put the ball at the disposal of a free throw shooter, or about to put the ball at the disposal of a throw-er-in-er. The key words are "about to".

[Nevadaref]

You were not correct and you do need to check the table for subs following the final FTA being successful. That is a dead ball with the clock stopped and thus by rule a substitution opportunity for both teams. There is no requirement for the substitute to report any earlier than that dead ball.

No wonder the coach was sarcastic towards you, you were inventing your own rules!

[OKREF]

I don't care when they get to the table, I am letting them in.

[Amesman]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

You were not correct and you do need to check the table for subs following the final FTA being successful. That is a dead ball with the clock stopped and thus by rule a substitution opportunity for both teams. There is no requirement for the substitute to report any earlier than that dead ball.

No wonder the coach was sarcastic towards you, you were inventing your own rules!

Don't bother ordering dessert for me tonight. I'll be over here in the corner, eating the humble pie I made and baked all for myself ...

Don't know what came over me, but I'm now the better for it.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Amesman

Don't bother ordering dessert for me tonight. I'll be over here in the corner, eating the humble pie I made and baked all for myself ...

Don't know what came over me, but I'm now the better for it.

Good for all of us once in a while.

Last night I mistakenly granted a TO to the asst coach!
He was sitting where the head coach was just two seconds ago. The head coach had stood up and walked about 10 feet away.

The head coach was cool about it though and said that he wanted the TO anyway, so I just charged it and moved on.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

The substitute must be at the X when the official is about to make the ball live, that is, about to put the ball at the disposal of a free throw shooter, or about to put the ball at the disposal of a throw-er-in-er. The key words are "about to".

This is based on what?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

The substitute must be at the X when the official is about to make the ball live, that is, about to put the ball at the disposal of a free throw shooter, or about to put the ball at the disposal of a throw-er-in-er. The key words are "about to".

Originally Posted by just another ref

This is based on what?

This sentence in 3-3-2: "If the ball is about to
become live, the beckoning signal should be withheld."

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

This sentence in 3-3-2: "If the ball is about to
become live, the beckoning signal should be withheld."

This does not relate to the OP, where a buzzer sounds after a made free throw. At this point, it doesn't matter when the sub arrived at the X.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

This does not relate to the OP, where a buzzer sounds after a made free throw. At this point, it doesn't matter when the sub arrived at the X.

But it will certainly matter for the second substitute who comes to the X at the table. I'm not going to play musical substitutes.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

This does not relate to the OP, where a buzzer sounds after a made free throw. At this point, it doesn't matter when the sub arrived at the X.

The horn should not be sounded until after the substitute has reported, so why would the "buzzer" sound after a made FT unless a substitute is waiting at the X? If there's no one there, then we keep going. That was the point that BillyM was making.

Take a look at 3-3-1d.

If entry is at any time other than between quarters, and a substitute who is
entitled and ready to enter reports to the scorer, the scorer shall use a
sounding device or game horn, if, or as soon as, the ball is dead and the

clock is stopped.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The horn should not be sounded until after the substitute has reported, so why would the "buzzer" sound after a made FT unless a substitute is waiting at the X?

It shouldn't and it didn't. In the OP, if I understand correctly, the official refused to allow a sub after the second free throw because there was no sub at the table when he checked after the first.

I disallowed a sub after a made FTA because I felt the coach ran her to the table too late. I felt the sub should have been there by the time I checked the table after the first FTA was converted.

I'm not turning around again to see if someone's at the table while the teams are starting to hustle down the court after the made 2nd FTA.

There is ample time for a sub to report while the ball is at the disposal of the shooter for the second free throw.