LGP Defined

[Man In Blue]

True or False?

A defensive player to the side or behind an offensive player is not in a legal guarding position.

[cmckenna]

False.

To establish LGP: 2 feet on the floor facing your opponent. Can move laterally or obliquely to maintain.

Doesn't say your opponent has to be facing you

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by cmckenna

False.

To establish LGP: 2 feet on the floor facing your opponent. Can move laterally or obliquely to maintain.

Doesn't say your opponent has to be facing you

I agree with False but your explanation is missing one primary requirement....

2 feet on the floor facing your opponent AND in their path. Being in the path is typically between the opponent and the way that they are moving or wish to move and that is often between them and the basket but not always.

A player often doesn't have LGP when they have two feet down and face an opponent who is running in a direction that is not towards them....they can't chase the opponent and have LGP.

[cmckenna]

"In the path" is in there and I should have included it. But the player can be to the side or back as long as they got to the spot first. If the player they are trailing changes direction and they have established LGP, (lets say the opponent stops and changes direction) they can't just be plowed over.

What about a screen set to the side or back? Initially the opponents "path", based on direction they are facing may have been forward but if the defender has the spot (provided time and distance are given when required) they are entitled to it because they obtained it legally.

Maybe I am just being too critical.

The OP asked if a defender to the side or back of an opponent is in legal guarding position (provided they got there first, established LGP and gave time and distance when required) and the answer is yes.

[OKREF]

Being in the path only applies to the definition of guarding..

Rule 4-23-1:
Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent. There is no minimum distance required between the guard and opponent, but the maximum is 6 feet when closely guarded. Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without *illegally contacting an opponent. A player who extends an arm, shoulder, hip or leg into the path of an opponent is not considered to have a legal position if contact occurs.


Legal guarding position is a different definition....

Rule 4-23-2

To obtain an initial legal guarding position:

a. The guard must have both feet touching the playing court.
b. The front of the guard's torso must be facing the opponent.


To obtain a legal guarding position you do not have to be in the path of the offensive player. To be guarding an offensive player you must be in his path.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Being in the path only applies to the definition of guarding..

Rule 4-23-1:
Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent. There is no minimum distance required between the guard and opponent, but the maximum is 6 feet when closely guarded. Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without *illegally contacting an opponent. A player who extends an arm, shoulder, hip or leg into the path of an opponent is not considered to have a legal position if contact occurs.


Legal guarding position is a different definition....

Rule 4-23-2

To obtain an initial legal guarding position:

a. The guard must have both feet touching the playing court.
b. The front of the guard's torso must be facing the opponent.


To obtain a legal guarding position you do not have to be in the path of the offensive player. To be guarding an offensive player you must be in his path.

Incorrect.

LGP is a special case of guarding. You can not have legal GUARDING position of you are not GUARDING.

If it were as you suggest, a defender could be chasing an opponent from behind (2 feet down and facing), pass them, then step across into their path with their back to them just as contact occurs and it would be a charge. We never call it that way....ever. I have never seen anyone at any level call it that way.

Furthermore, if your interpretation were true, everyone would have LGP the entire game once they faced each opponent with their feet down just once somewhere on the floor.

Even more so, your interpretation would permit a defender to move under an airborne opponent since your definition of legal position only involves stance and not position and the rule on airborne opponents only requires "legal position" and that could be satisfied even outside the path and moving under after the opponent was airborne.

Simply put, the definitions of LGP just don't work at all unless it includes the path.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Incorrect.

LGP is a special case of guarding. You can not have legal GUARDING position of you are not GUARDING.

If it were as you suggest, a defender could be chasing an opponent from behind (2 feet down and facing), pass them, then step across into their path with their back to them just as contact occurs and it would be a charge. We never call it that way....ever. I have never seen anyone at any level call it that way.

Furthermore, if your interpretation were true, everyone would have LGP the entire game once they faced each opponent with their feet down just once somewhere on the floor.

Even more so, your interpretation would permit a defender to move under an airborne opponent since your definition of legal position only involves stance and not position and the rule on airborne opponents only requires "legal position" and that could be satisfied even outside the path and moving under after the opponent was airborne.

Simply put, the definitions of LGP just don't work at all unless it includes the path.

That wasn't an interpretation, that was verbatim from the rule book.

[Adam]

If a dribbler is retreating, his defender still has LGP. I'm also maintaining my five second count.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by OKREF

That wasn't an interpretation, that was verbatim from the rule book.

The 2 passages below are not verbatim from the rule book, they are your interpretations

Originally Posted by OKREF

Being in the path only applies to the definition of guarding..

....


To obtain a legal guarding position you do not have to be in the path of the offensive player. To be guarding an offensive player you must be in his path.

The interpretation I use to establish LGP is "...the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent." plus 4-23-2a&b.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

The 2 passages below are not verbatim from the rule book, they are your interpretations




The interpretation I use to establish LGP is "...the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent." plus 4-23-2a&b.

Fair enough. However, the NFHS definition of initial legal guarding position does not include " being in the path of the offensive player"

[APG]

Pretty sure that NFHS assumed that since they defined guarding as an act of placing one's body in the path of an opponent, that they didn't have to include that portion in a section about legal guarding position.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by APG

Pretty sure that NFHS assumed that since they defined guarding as an act of placing one's body in the path of an opponent, that they didn't have to include that portion in a section about legal guarding position.

You're right.

[Man In Blue]

Sorry I took the quote out of context. Here is the full quote:

Coaches should not teach players to “head hunt” after securing the ball. Defenders must understand that while guarding so close an elbow may hit them which could result in incidental contact to the head or shoulder. While good defense (defense without hand checking, slapping, or other illegal contact) should not be penalized, the offensive player must be allowed room to maneuver the ball without contacting the defensive player. Remember legal guarding position is two feet on the floor and facing the opponent. A defensive player to the side or behind an offensive player is not in a legal guarding position

[Adam]

Wow

[Man In Blue]

This came from our state association!