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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 22, 2012, 02:19pm
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Aggressively approaching official

This is a follow up to the closed thread....Jacket toss.

The coach made two separate actions in the heat of the moment. On the initial no-call, she came at the official. She got T'd. The jacket toss is considered to be a respect for the game issue and a separate action regardless of who catches the jacket. Ask Bobby Knight, that old lady in the corner caught that chair

From the NBA VideoRulebook there are multiple examples of what is unacceptable. While these are player related, the message from the NBA (WNBA) is clear.

Last edited by icallfouls; Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 02:22pm.
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Old Mon Oct 22, 2012, 02:28pm
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POE for NCAA-M this season is bench decorum:

3. Prolonged, negative responses to a call/no-call which is disrespectful or unprofessional and includes, but is not limited to: thrashing the arms in disgust, dramatizing contact by re-enacting the play, or running or jumping in disbelief over a call/no-call.

4. A negative response to a call/no-call including, but not limited to, approaching/charging an official in a hostile, aggressive or otherwise threatening manner, emphatically removing one’s coat in response to a call/no-call or throwing equipment or clothing on to the floor.
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Old Mon Oct 22, 2012, 02:35pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
POE for NCAA-M this season is bench decorum:

3. Prolonged, negative responses to a call/no-call which is disrespectful or unprofessional and includes, but is not limited to: thrashing the arms in disgust, dramatizing contact by re-enacting the play, or running or jumping in disbelief over a call/no-call.

4. A negative response to a call/no-call including, but not limited to, approaching/charging an official in a hostile, aggressive or otherwise threatening manner, emphatically removing one’s coat in response to a call/no-call or throwing equipment or clothing on to the floor.
Exactly, my comprehension of the "or" in the wording of the POE tells me that simply removing the jacket emphatically should be penalized. Whether it was thrown or not.
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Old Mon Oct 22, 2012, 02:53pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
POE for NCAA-M this season is bench decorum:

3. Prolonged, negative responses to a call/no-call which is disrespectful or unprofessional and includes, but is not limited to: thrashing the arms in disgust, dramatizing contact by re-enacting the play, or running or jumping in disbelief over a call/no-call.

4. A negative response to a call/no-call including, but not limited to, approaching/charging an official in a hostile, aggressive or otherwise threatening manner, emphatically removing one’s coat in response to a call/no-call or throwing equipment or clothing on to the floor.
I have seen it also. So it would seem reasonable to make the leap that it would also apply at HS
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Old Mon Oct 22, 2012, 04:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icallfouls View Post
This is a follow up to the closed thread....Jacket toss.

The coach made two separate actions in the heat of the moment. On the initial no-call, she came at the official. She got T'd. The jacket toss is considered to be a respect for the game issue and a separate action regardless of who catches the jacket. Ask Bobby Knight, that old lady in the corner caught that chair

From the NBA VideoRulebook there are multiple examples of what is unacceptable. While these are player related, the message from the NBA (WNBA) is clear.
I guess it is a matter of whether you consider it two separate actions or one. I could go either way depending on the timeframe involved. I don't remember what the specific timing was in the video and I don't care to go watch it again but if it was the first response....then a T...then a moment before the jacket toss, that could easily be another. But if it was all in one moment, I don't think it is right to call two T's for one act.
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Old Mon Oct 22, 2012, 04:14pm
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...and I'm pretty sure we all know what to do when an NFHS player emphatically removes ones garmet.
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Old Mon Oct 22, 2012, 04:25pm
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Originally Posted by RookieDude View Post
...and I'm pretty sure we all know what to do when an NFHS player emphatically removes ones garmet.
All levels for that matter. I do not work pro ball so I honestly do not care what they do and certainly I do not work in the WNBA.

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Old Mon Oct 22, 2012, 04:36pm
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Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
I guess it is a matter of whether you consider it two separate actions or one. I could go either way depending on the timeframe involved. I don't remember what the specific timing was in the video and I don't care to go watch it again but if it was the first response....then a T...then a moment before the jacket toss, that could easily be another. But if it was all in one moment, I don't think it is right to call two T's for one act.
Did you read what icallfouls posted? By rule the jacket toss is considered a separate act...
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Old Mon Oct 22, 2012, 04:39pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
I guess it is a matter of whether you consider it two separate actions or one. I could go either way depending on the timeframe involved. I don't remember what the specific timing was in the video and I don't care to go watch it again but if it was the first response....then a T...then a moment before the jacket toss, that could easily be another. But if it was all in one moment, I don't think it is right to call two T's for one act.
IMO, the first was in response to the no call, the second was in response to the T. It looked like one of those fights from HS, she ripped off the jacket like she wanted to fight the official.

I can see where some officials would say this is just one act, but she was responding to two different rulings.

Question: If you called the TF for the outburst/aggressive movement toward you, then why wouldn't you call a TF for the jacket?

For me, I hope that I would not think twice about it. At the level I am at, for this exchange, I will make that call in the game, and then to my assignors.
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Old Mon Oct 22, 2012, 04:43pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icallfouls View Post
IMO, the first was in response to the no call, the second was in response to the T. It looked like one of those fights from HS, she ripped off the jacket like she wanted to fight the official.

I can see where some officials would say this is just one act, but she was responding to two different rulings.

Question: If you called the TF for the outburst/aggressive movement toward you, then why wouldn't you call a TF for the jacket?

For me, I hope that I would not think twice about it. At the level I am at, for this exchange, I will make that call in the game, and then to my assignors.
+1

What does POE stand for again
And why do they come up with POEs
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Old Mon Oct 22, 2012, 06:01pm
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Nor Do I Have A Dog In The Fight ...

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Originally Posted by rockyroad View Post
Did you read what icallfouls posted? By rule the jacket toss is considered a separate act...
... for throwing the clothing on to the floor. In this case the clothing was thrown to an assistant coach. I don't have a horse in this race, just a point of fact.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 06:22pm.
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Old Mon Oct 22, 2012, 06:26pm
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Kinda reminds me of a summer game this year. Got the assistant for coming onto the court to protest a no-call, then got him again as he 'cheered' me while I reported the first T.
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Old Mon Oct 22, 2012, 06:35pm
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Originally Posted by rockyroad View Post
Did you read what icallfouls posted? By rule the jacket toss is considered a separate act...
Like I said, I didn't go back and watch the video. icallfouls only asserted that he felt it was two separate actions. I didn't disagree with his opinion there (I didn't check the video to see). However, neither the rules nor icallfouls claim it is automatically two actions and T's just because a jacket comes off....just that the jacket removal in disgust is enough for a T.

If the Jacket came after the first T (perhaps in response to the T) then sure, it is clearly a separate act and two T's. But it is not necessarily two T's if they are done at the same time. It would be like giving two T's for a coach waiving their arms while yelling. They ruling doesn't say or even imply that you dissect one action into parts to give two Ts.
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Old Mon Oct 22, 2012, 06:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icallfouls View Post
IMO, the first was in response to the no call, the second was in response to the T. It looked like one of those fights from HS, she ripped off the jacket like she wanted to fight the official.

I can see where some officials would say this is just one act, but she was responding to two different rulings.

Question: If you called the TF for the outburst/aggressive movement toward you, then why wouldn't you call a TF for the jacket?

For me, I hope that I would not think twice about it. At the level I am at, for this exchange, I will make that call in the game, and then to my assignors.
It would be....if they were not the same act. If they outburst/aggressive movement included the Jacket Removal, it would only be 1.
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Old Mon Oct 22, 2012, 06:56pm
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Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
... for throwing the clothing on to the floor. In this case the clothing was thrown to an assistant coach. I don't have a horse in this race, just a point of fact.
The first T was given while the jacket was on. If I am reading correctly, there's rule support for a second T in regards to throwing equipment or clothing on to the floor OR the emphatic removal of a jacket in response to a call/no call. A totally separate act and it seems pretty clear what they want, at least in the NCAA-M's ruleset.

I believe our varsity assigners would want this addressed in the same fashion, without warning.
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