The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 22, 2012, 02:19pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 719
Aggressively approaching official

This is a follow up to the closed thread....Jacket toss.

The coach made two separate actions in the heat of the moment. On the initial no-call, she came at the official. She got T'd. The jacket toss is considered to be a respect for the game issue and a separate action regardless of who catches the jacket. Ask Bobby Knight, that old lady in the corner caught that chair

From the NBA VideoRulebook there are multiple examples of what is unacceptable. While these are player related, the message from the NBA (WNBA) is clear.

Last edited by icallfouls; Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 02:22pm.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 22, 2012, 02:28pm
Courageous When Prudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Posts: 14,839
POE for NCAA-M this season is bench decorum:

3. Prolonged, negative responses to a call/no-call which is disrespectful or unprofessional and includes, but is not limited to: thrashing the arms in disgust, dramatizing contact by re-enacting the play, or running or jumping in disbelief over a call/no-call.

4. A negative response to a call/no-call including, but not limited to, approaching/charging an official in a hostile, aggressive or otherwise threatening manner, emphatically removing one’s coat in response to a call/no-call or throwing equipment or clothing on to the floor.
__________________
A-hole formerly known as BNR
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 22, 2012, 02:35pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,183
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
POE for NCAA-M this season is bench decorum:

3. Prolonged, negative responses to a call/no-call which is disrespectful or unprofessional and includes, but is not limited to: thrashing the arms in disgust, dramatizing contact by re-enacting the play, or running or jumping in disbelief over a call/no-call.

4. A negative response to a call/no-call including, but not limited to, approaching/charging an official in a hostile, aggressive or otherwise threatening manner, emphatically removing one’s coat in response to a call/no-call or throwing equipment or clothing on to the floor.
Exactly, my comprehension of the "or" in the wording of the POE tells me that simply removing the jacket emphatically should be penalized. Whether it was thrown or not.
__________________
I gotta new attitude!
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 22, 2012, 02:53pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 719
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
POE for NCAA-M this season is bench decorum:

3. Prolonged, negative responses to a call/no-call which is disrespectful or unprofessional and includes, but is not limited to: thrashing the arms in disgust, dramatizing contact by re-enacting the play, or running or jumping in disbelief over a call/no-call.

4. A negative response to a call/no-call including, but not limited to, approaching/charging an official in a hostile, aggressive or otherwise threatening manner, emphatically removing one’s coat in response to a call/no-call or throwing equipment or clothing on to the floor.
I have seen it also. So it would seem reasonable to make the leap that it would also apply at HS
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 22, 2012, 04:00pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 12,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by icallfouls View Post
This is a follow up to the closed thread....Jacket toss.

The coach made two separate actions in the heat of the moment. On the initial no-call, she came at the official. She got T'd. The jacket toss is considered to be a respect for the game issue and a separate action regardless of who catches the jacket. Ask Bobby Knight, that old lady in the corner caught that chair

From the NBA VideoRulebook there are multiple examples of what is unacceptable. While these are player related, the message from the NBA (WNBA) is clear.
I guess it is a matter of whether you consider it two separate actions or one. I could go either way depending on the timeframe involved. I don't remember what the specific timing was in the video and I don't care to go watch it again but if it was the first response....then a T...then a moment before the jacket toss, that could easily be another. But if it was all in one moment, I don't think it is right to call two T's for one act.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 22, 2012, 04:14pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,856
...and I'm pretty sure we all know what to do when an NFHS player emphatically removes ones garmet.
__________________
Dan Ivey
Tri-City Sports Officials Asso. (TCSOA)
Member since 1989
Richland, WA
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 22, 2012, 04:25pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 30,463
Quote:
Originally Posted by RookieDude View Post
...and I'm pretty sure we all know what to do when an NFHS player emphatically removes ones garmet.
All levels for that matter. I do not work pro ball so I honestly do not care what they do and certainly I do not work in the WNBA.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 22, 2012, 04:36pm
Esteemed Participant
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Vancouver, WA
Posts: 4,775
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
I guess it is a matter of whether you consider it two separate actions or one. I could go either way depending on the timeframe involved. I don't remember what the specific timing was in the video and I don't care to go watch it again but if it was the first response....then a T...then a moment before the jacket toss, that could easily be another. But if it was all in one moment, I don't think it is right to call two T's for one act.
Did you read what icallfouls posted? By rule the jacket toss is considered a separate act...
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 22, 2012, 04:39pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 719
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
I guess it is a matter of whether you consider it two separate actions or one. I could go either way depending on the timeframe involved. I don't remember what the specific timing was in the video and I don't care to go watch it again but if it was the first response....then a T...then a moment before the jacket toss, that could easily be another. But if it was all in one moment, I don't think it is right to call two T's for one act.
IMO, the first was in response to the no call, the second was in response to the T. It looked like one of those fights from HS, she ripped off the jacket like she wanted to fight the official.

I can see where some officials would say this is just one act, but she was responding to two different rulings.

Question: If you called the TF for the outburst/aggressive movement toward you, then why wouldn't you call a TF for the jacket?

For me, I hope that I would not think twice about it. At the level I am at, for this exchange, I will make that call in the game, and then to my assignors.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 22, 2012, 04:43pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,183
Quote:
Originally Posted by icallfouls View Post
IMO, the first was in response to the no call, the second was in response to the T. It looked like one of those fights from HS, she ripped off the jacket like she wanted to fight the official.

I can see where some officials would say this is just one act, but she was responding to two different rulings.

Question: If you called the TF for the outburst/aggressive movement toward you, then why wouldn't you call a TF for the jacket?

For me, I hope that I would not think twice about it. At the level I am at, for this exchange, I will make that call in the game, and then to my assignors.
+1

What does POE stand for again
And why do they come up with POEs
__________________
I gotta new attitude!
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 22, 2012, 06:01pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
Nor Do I Have A Dog In The Fight ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockyroad View Post
Did you read what icallfouls posted? By rule the jacket toss is considered a separate act...
... for throwing the clothing on to the floor. In this case the clothing was thrown to an assistant coach. I don't have a horse in this race, just a point of fact.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 06:22pm.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 22, 2012, 06:26pm
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
Kinda reminds me of a summer game this year. Got the assistant for coming onto the court to protest a no-call, then got him again as he 'cheered' me while I reported the first T.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 22, 2012, 06:35pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 12,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockyroad View Post
Did you read what icallfouls posted? By rule the jacket toss is considered a separate act...
Like I said, I didn't go back and watch the video. icallfouls only asserted that he felt it was two separate actions. I didn't disagree with his opinion there (I didn't check the video to see). However, neither the rules nor icallfouls claim it is automatically two actions and T's just because a jacket comes off....just that the jacket removal in disgust is enough for a T.

If the Jacket came after the first T (perhaps in response to the T) then sure, it is clearly a separate act and two T's. But it is not necessarily two T's if they are done at the same time. It would be like giving two T's for a coach waiving their arms while yelling. They ruling doesn't say or even imply that you dissect one action into parts to give two Ts.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 22, 2012, 06:36pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 12,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by icallfouls View Post
IMO, the first was in response to the no call, the second was in response to the T. It looked like one of those fights from HS, she ripped off the jacket like she wanted to fight the official.

I can see where some officials would say this is just one act, but she was responding to two different rulings.

Question: If you called the TF for the outburst/aggressive movement toward you, then why wouldn't you call a TF for the jacket?

For me, I hope that I would not think twice about it. At the level I am at, for this exchange, I will make that call in the game, and then to my assignors.
It would be....if they were not the same act. If they outburst/aggressive movement included the Jacket Removal, it would only be 1.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 22, 2012, 06:56pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Posts: 307
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
... for throwing the clothing on to the floor. In this case the clothing was thrown to an assistant coach. I don't have a horse in this race, just a point of fact.
The first T was given while the jacket was on. If I am reading correctly, there's rule support for a second T in regards to throwing equipment or clothing on to the floor OR the emphatic removal of a jacket in response to a call/no call. A totally separate act and it seems pretty clear what they want, at least in the NCAA-M's ruleset.

I believe our varsity assigners would want this addressed in the same fashion, without warning.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
College Official & High School Official IREFU2 Basketball 5 Tue Mar 10, 2009 04:54pm
Becoming an official Slazenger3 Basketball 16 Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:37am
Official Gear - ASA Official Pants Dakota Softball 10 Wed Apr 12, 2006 11:20am
High School Official vs NCAA /College Official CLAY Basketball 22 Sat Feb 22, 2003 11:29pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:32am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1