block/charge/no call considerations

[APG]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

Fans like high scoring games and don't like defense other than blocks. We all know that. But where does it stop? How long until there's no such thing as a PC foul anywhere in the paint? Then anywhere at all? After all, it will give us more offense.

Basketball isn't an interesting sport for me at the levels that use the RA. Mainly because of the increased emphasis on solo rather than team play on offense and the RA contributes heavily to this.

I don't believe that...fans like blocks obviously, but they also like steals, they like the on ball defender moving his feet, beating the offensive player to the spot and taking a charge...they don't mind help defenders taking a charge as long as you aren't do it at/right near the basket. To think the RA will somehow lead to a slippery slope of no charges I think is over the top. Again, most fans aren't totally against the charge...that will never been taken out of the game. I have a hard time seeing the paint being into an RA at even the NBA level. If they're going to do anything with the paint in the NCAA, I would guess they'd widen the lane to the NBA/FIBA width.

To your last point, if high school ball is all that interests you now, more power to you. I would say that I don't believe the RA contributes much to this solo ball that you speak of...coaches at the NCAA/HS level (I'm assuming you don't watch any NBA ball) have been complaining about that well before the RA has been implemented (and in HS its not even implemented). I think the solo ball is more affected by players playing more AAU vs. traditional organized HS games. But that's a subject for another thread.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by APG

I would say that I don't believe the RA contributes much to this solo ball that you speak of...coaches at the NCAA/HS level (I'm assuming you don't watch any NBA ball) have been complaining about that well before the RA has been implemented (and in HS its not even implemented).

Before the RA existed, many officials called things as if it did exist anyway. So the issue of whether they complained or not is not really relevant.

The RA (even the virtual RA) does encourage the player to continue to the rim vs. passing off to a teammate who may have a better position if they think they'll get a blocking foul called no matter what (which can actually encourage more contact contrary to one of the stated goals of the RA rule). It may not be the only factor, but it does contribute.

Originally Posted by APG

I think the solo ball is more affected by players playing more AAU vs. traditional organized HS games. But that's a subject for another thread.

That certainly could be.

[Camron Rust]

One question that really has never been addressed.

When does a secondary defender become a primary defender?

What about the defender who doesn't slide in at the last moment but saw the play coming a mile away and waited for the dribbler, who has a reputation of just plowing through. He didn't just get there at the last moment. Is he really a secondary defender or is he a primary defender?

Sure, he may have had time to step forward 2-3 inches but really, the rule was supposed to be about players sliding under at the last moment as a shooter was going up to shoot at the very short range. It really wasn't intended to be as much about location as it was about timing. If the defender was there 3-4 steps before the shooter got there, the shooter would be dumb to continue on that path and would deserve the foul if there was one.

[johnny d]

Even if the defender is there 3-4 steps before the offense, he is still a secondary defender. Also, if the defender is able to get there that long before the offensive player, than he shouldnt have any problem getting outside of the RA. Therefore this part of your argument isnt really valid. Most of the time if contact is occuring in the RA it is because the defender is getting there late. I have to agree with the other posters who have said that most coaches, fans, and officials would argue a player isnt playing defense by trying to establish position so close to the basket. Are the trying to defend the ball as it comes through the bottom of the net?

[johnny d]

Oh and on a sarcastic note, what grade level do you need to officiate at where a step is only 2-3 inches?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by johnny d

Even if the defender is there 3-4 steps before the offense, he is still a secondary defender. Also, if the defender is able to get there that long before the offensive player, than he shouldn't have any problem getting outside of the RA.

The question remains. What does it take to become a primary defender. What if they get position outside, back up a step or two and get one foot in the RA? Does the fact that they back up a step or two during the drive make them a primary defender. What if they back up 10 steps after getting in front of the driver? 20? When does a defender shift from being secondary to primary?

Originally Posted by johnny d

Therefore this part of your argument isnt really valid. Most of the time if contact is occuring in the RA it is because the defender is getting there late. I have to agree with the other posters who have said that most coaches, fans, and officials would argue a player isnt playing defense by trying to establish position so close to the basket. Are the trying to defend the ball as it comes through the bottom of the net?

The goal of defense is to prevent the other team from shooting the ball. Obtaining any position between the ball and the basket is, by definition, good defense. It is preventing the offensive player from having access to a desirable path to the basket. It may not be as exciting as a dunk or a blocked shot, but it is still good defense to take away the avenue desired by the opponent.

People can thump their chests all day long about it not being "good" defense, but those claims just don't make sense. They may be common but it doesn't make them add up when you consider what the purpose of defense is.

You can also use hyperbole about defending the ball coming through the net but in 99% of the cases, the contact occurs before the ball is released.

The REAL reason for the RA is to encourage scoring. Nothing more. The safety claim is just a canard. They had to use that to justify the change as they didn't want to appear to be manipulating the basics of the game for something like scoring. The saftey issue was easily resolved with the old rules if the plays were called as the rules were written.

[Raymond]

People do realize there is a difference between "their opinion" and "facts"?

[johnny d]

back up 10-20 steps, now you are being nonsensical. and btw it doesnt really matter when of if the defender can ever switch from being secondary to primary because the rule states the seconday defender cannot ESTABLISH INITIAL LEGAL GUARDING POSITION so if you want to take your argument to the most absurd extreme and assume the secondary defender establishes position 94 feet from the basket and backs up all the way into the RA they can do that legally.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by johnny d

back up 10-20 steps, now you are being nonsensical. and btw it doesnt really matter when of if the defender can ever switch from being secondary to primary because the rule states the seconday defender cannot ESTABLISH INITIAL LEGAL GUARDING POSITION so if you want to take your argument to the most absurd extreme and assume the secondary defender establishes position 94 feet from the basket and backs up all the way into the RA they can do that legally.

It is not nonsense. It is just exaggerating the elements to expose the main point that you don't seem to see.

Again, how does a player become a primary defender? How long must they be on the player and at what distance must they be in order to be a primary defender. If players switch out top on a screen, the secondary defender does at some point become a primary. The question is where and when? If a secondary defender slides in and backs there way down the lane for 1 step, two steps, 5 steps, 10 steps, all right with the dribbler, when do they become the primary?

[jeremy341a]

Originally Posted by camron rust

the goal of defense is to prevent the other team from shooting the ball. Obtaining any position between the ball and the basket is, by definition, good defense. It is preventing the offensive player from having access to a desirable path to the basket. It may not be as exciting as a dunk or a blocked shot, but it is still good defense to take away the avenue desired by the opponent.

People can thump their chests all day long about it not being "good" defense, but those claims just don't make sense. They may be common but it doesn't make them add up when you consider what the purpose of defense is.

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