NFHS emphasis on elbow contact

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Adam

Yep, taking a college mentality and applying it to high school when the rules don't support it.

Maybe even taking a misunderstanding of the college rule.

Yes, even a misunderstanding of the college rule.

[AKOFL]

it is my college assigner. lol perhaps i misread what he posted..

[AKOFL]

if A1 is swinging his elbows and he contacts B1, above the shoulders it is a Flag 1 or Flag 2, below the shoulders is Ccommon, flag1 or flag 2. if the swinging is excessive and contact is made flag 2. THen there is the contact by an elbow that is not swinging. It can be a foul or incidental. so no swinging elbow contact can be a common foul? may be that is the point he was making. How does that sound?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by AKOFL

if A1 is swinging his elbows and he contacts B1, above the shoulders it is a Flag 1 or Flag 2, below the shoulders is Ccommon, flag1 or flag 2. if the swinging is excessive and contact is made flag 2. THen there is the contact by an elbow that is not swinging. It can be a foul or incidental. so no swinging elbow contact can be a common foul? may be that is the point he was making. How does that sound?

Rule set?

[AKOFL]

ncaa

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by AKOFL

if A1 is swinging his elbows and he contacts B1, above the shoulders it is a Flag 1 or Flag 2, below the shoulders is Ccommon, flag1 or flag 2. if the swinging is excessive and contact is made flag 2. THen there is the contact by an elbow that is not swinging. It can be a foul or incidental. so no swinging elbow contact can be a common foul? may be that is the point he was making. How does that sound?

A couple of things:

1) Use "moving" instead of "swinging" to (help) avoid confusion with "excessive".

2) Even contact with a moving elbow can be incidental (at least in NCAAW), even if above the shoulders.

[AKOFL]

thanks bob
im trying to wrap my head around a common foul on this. assigner said u cant have a common foul if you think the player "didnt mean to do it". guess i better get clarification from him on this

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by AKOFL

I'm trying to wrap my head around a common foul on this. Assigner said u cant have a common foul if you think the player "didn't mean to do it". Guess i better get clarification from him on this

Color me confused.

We had our first meeting last night, the "new rules" meeting, and our interpreter "pretty much" said the same thing, paraphrased as, "With no contact, excessive swinging will be a violation. With no excessive swinging, an elbow to an opponent's head will either be incidental, or intentional. With excessive swinging the foul will be intentional, or flagrant".

Where's the common foul?

He was "pretty much" relying on a Power-point based on NFHS "language". When I asked him under what conditions an official would charge a common foul, he told us that he would discuss it at the next meeting.

So my question to the Forum, particularly IAABO members: Will we ever charge a common foul if an opponent gets struck in the head by a moving elbow?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by AKOFL

our assigner rules that there is no situation for elbow contact above the shoulder to be ruled a common foul. is this your take on that rule?

Originally Posted by AKOFL

thanks bob
im trying to wrap my head around a common foul on this. assigner said u cant have a common foul if you think the player "didnt mean to do it". guess i better get clarification from him on this

Your first statement (from farther up in the thread) is incorrect because it just says "elbow contact." Contact with a stationary elbow can be a common foul.

Let me try this:

1) First, decide whether the contact is incidental or illegal. Even contact with a moving elbow above the shoulders can be incidental (but it would be extremely rare for it to be incidental if the elbows were being Excessively Swung -- as defined in the book).

2) If the contact is illegal, then:
a) Stationary, above the shoulders: Common
b) Stationary, below the shoulders: Common
c) Moving, above the shoulders: Intentional
d) Moving, below the shoulders: Common
e) Excessively Swung, above the shoulders: Flagrant*
f) Excessively Swing, below the shoulders: Intentional

Any of the above can be "upgraded" of course, if you think the situation warrants.

* -- The rule, I think, really just says "intentional", but I'd be hard pressed not to have this as flagrant

And, from a game management point, most of the time, this happens on a rebound when we let the new defense hack away at the person getting the rebound. Get them out of there (use your voice) or call the foul on the hack.

[BillyMac]

Contact above the shoulders. With a continued emphasis on reducing concussions and decreasing excessive contact situations the committee determined that more guidance is needed for penalizing contact above the shoulders.

a. A player shall not swing his/her arm(s) or elbow(s) even without contacting an opponent. Excessive swinging of the elbows occurs when arms and elbows are swung about while using the shoulders as pivots, and the speed of the extended arms and elbows is in excess of the rest of the body as it rotates on the hips or on the pivot foot. Currently it is a violation in Rule 9 Section 13 Article.

b. Examples of illegal contact above the shoulders and resulting penalties.
1. Contact with a stationary elbow may be incidental or a common foul.
2. An elbow in movement but not excessive should be an intentional foul.
3. A moving elbow that is excessive can be either an intentional foul or flagrant personal foul.