NFHS emphasis on elbow contact

[AKOFL]

it is my college assigner. lol perhaps i misread what he posted..

[AKOFL]

if A1 is swinging his elbows and he contacts B1, above the shoulders it is a Flag 1 or Flag 2, below the shoulders is Ccommon, flag1 or flag 2. if the swinging is excessive and contact is made flag 2. THen there is the contact by an elbow that is not swinging. It can be a foul or incidental. so no swinging elbow contact can be a common foul? may be that is the point he was making. How does that sound?

[APG]

Originally Posted by IREFU2

The one and only problem I see with this whole thing is that someone has to see the elbow contact. Since there are no monitors (at least in our area in HS), a coach cant request or even suggest that his kid got an elbow...no way to review even if the kid is on the grown holding his face.

I'm not getting your point. That's true for any type of foul at the high school level isn't it?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by AKOFL

if A1 is swinging his elbows and he contacts B1, above the shoulders it is a Flag 1 or Flag 2, below the shoulders is Ccommon, flag1 or flag 2. if the swinging is excessive and contact is made flag 2. THen there is the contact by an elbow that is not swinging. It can be a foul or incidental. so no swinging elbow contact can be a common foul? may be that is the point he was making. How does that sound?

Rule set?

[AKOFL]

ncaa

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by AKOFL

if A1 is swinging his elbows and he contacts B1, above the shoulders it is a Flag 1 or Flag 2, below the shoulders is Ccommon, flag1 or flag 2. if the swinging is excessive and contact is made flag 2. THen there is the contact by an elbow that is not swinging. It can be a foul or incidental. so no swinging elbow contact can be a common foul? may be that is the point he was making. How does that sound?

A couple of things:

1) Use "moving" instead of "swinging" to (help) avoid confusion with "excessive".

2) Even contact with a moving elbow can be incidental (at least in NCAAW), even if above the shoulders.

[AKOFL]

thanks bob
im trying to wrap my head around a common foul on this. assigner said u cant have a common foul if you think the player "didnt mean to do it". guess i better get clarification from him on this

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by AKOFL

I'm trying to wrap my head around a common foul on this. Assigner said u cant have a common foul if you think the player "didn't mean to do it". Guess i better get clarification from him on this

Color me confused.

We had our first meeting last night, the "new rules" meeting, and our interpreter "pretty much" said the same thing, paraphrased as, "With no contact, excessive swinging will be a violation. With no excessive swinging, an elbow to an opponent's head will either be incidental, or intentional. With excessive swinging the foul will be intentional, or flagrant".

Where's the common foul?

He was "pretty much" relying on a Power-point based on NFHS "language". When I asked him under what conditions an official would charge a common foul, he told us that he would discuss it at the next meeting.

So my question to the Forum, particularly IAABO members: Will we ever charge a common foul if an opponent gets struck in the head by a moving elbow?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by AKOFL

our assigner rules that there is no situation for elbow contact above the shoulder to be ruled a common foul. is this your take on that rule?

Originally Posted by AKOFL

thanks bob
im trying to wrap my head around a common foul on this. assigner said u cant have a common foul if you think the player "didnt mean to do it". guess i better get clarification from him on this

Your first statement (from farther up in the thread) is incorrect because it just says "elbow contact." Contact with a stationary elbow can be a common foul.

Let me try this:

1) First, decide whether the contact is incidental or illegal. Even contact with a moving elbow above the shoulders can be incidental (but it would be extremely rare for it to be incidental if the elbows were being Excessively Swung -- as defined in the book).

2) If the contact is illegal, then:
a) Stationary, above the shoulders: Common
b) Stationary, below the shoulders: Common
c) Moving, above the shoulders: Intentional
d) Moving, below the shoulders: Common
e) Excessively Swung, above the shoulders: Flagrant*
f) Excessively Swing, below the shoulders: Intentional

Any of the above can be "upgraded" of course, if you think the situation warrants.

* -- The rule, I think, really just says "intentional", but I'd be hard pressed not to have this as flagrant

And, from a game management point, most of the time, this happens on a rebound when we let the new defense hack away at the person getting the rebound. Get them out of there (use your voice) or call the foul on the hack.

[BillyMac]

Contact above the shoulders. With a continued emphasis on reducing concussions and decreasing excessive contact situations the committee determined that more guidance is needed for penalizing contact above the shoulders.

a. A player shall not swing his/her arm(s) or elbow(s) even without contacting an opponent. Excessive swinging of the elbows occurs when arms and elbows are swung about while using the shoulders as pivots, and the speed of the extended arms and elbows is in excess of the rest of the body as it rotates on the hips or on the pivot foot. Currently it is a violation in Rule 9 Section 13 Article.

b. Examples of illegal contact above the shoulders and resulting penalties.
1. Contact with a stationary elbow may be incidental or a common foul.
2. An elbow in movement but not excessive should be an intentional foul.
3. A moving elbow that is excessive can be either an intentional foul or flagrant personal foul.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Contact above the shoulders. With a continued emphasis on reducing concussions and decreasing excessive contact situations the committee determined that more guidance is needed for penalizing contact above the shoulders.

a. A player shall not swing his/her arm(s) or elbow(s) even without contacting an opponent. Excessive swinging of the elbows occurs when arms and elbows are swung about while using the shoulders as pivots, and the speed of the extended arms and elbows is in excess of the rest of the body as it rotates on the hips or on the pivot foot. Currently it is a violation in Rule 9 Section 13 Article.

b. Examples of illegal contact above the shoulders and resulting penalties.
1. Contact with a stationary elbow may be incidental or a common foul.
2. An elbow in movement but not excessive should be an intentional foul.
3. A moving elbow that is excessive can be either an intentional foul or flagrant personal foul.

So, if a player grabs a rebound, holds the ball in front of him with elbows slightly out, and at shoulder level, and pivots, moving his elbows with a rotational motion no faster than his feet move on the pivot, in other words, the elbow movement is not considered excessive, and accidentally strikes a shorter nearby player in the head, in the rebounder's blind spot, behind him, and to the side, and the official decides that this is illegal contact, then, according to the NFHS, the minimum "level" foul that we can charge here is an intentional foul? Do I have this right? We can't charge a common foul here? Am I reading the point of emphasis correctly?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

So, if a player grabs a rebound, holds the ball in front of him with elbows slightly out, and at shoulder level, and pivots, moving his elbows with a rotational motion no faster than his feet move on the pivot, in other words, the elbow movement is not considered excessive, and accidentally strikes a shorter nearby player in the head, in the rebounder's blind spot, behind him, and to the side, and the official decides that this is illegal contact, then, according to the NFHS, the minimum "level" foul that we can charge here is an intentional foul? Do I have this right? We can't charge a common foul here? Am I reading the point of emphasis correctly?

Any possibility that this could backfire on the NFHS? Like the time that they changed excessive swinging from a violation to a non-contact technical foul, and only a few officials called it that way because some thought that the penalty was too harsh? After a few seasons of many officials not calling anything on excessive swinging, the NFHS changed it back to just a violation. I can certainly see some veterans on my local board choose to rule incidental contact rather than charging an intentional foul on non-excessive swinging that results in elbow to head contact, when in past years they simply would have called a common foul to end such behavior. And I can see many more of our local veterans simply ignoring the Point of Emphasis and just charge a common foul in the same situation.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

So, if a player grabs a rebound, holds the ball in front of him with elbows slightly out, and at shoulder level, and pivots, moving his elbows with a rotational motion no faster than his feet move on the pivot, in other words, the elbow movement is not considered excessive, and accidentally strikes a shorter nearby player in the head, in the rebounder's blind spot, behind him, and to the side, and the official decides that this is illegal contact, then, according to the NFHS, the minimum "level" foul that we can charge here is an intentional foul? Do I have this right? We can't charge a common foul here? Am I reading the point of emphasis correctly?

Yep, you got that right. The only reason a player has their elbows in such a position is to use them to clear space, even if not excessively swung. They want the elbows out of the play altogether.

[Sharpshooternes]

Can you all chime in on the mechanic of reporting a a flagrant personal foul from excessive use of elbows above the shoulders?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

Can you all chime in on the mechanic of reporting a a flagrant personal foul from excessive use of elbows above the shoulders?

There are no official signals or mechanics for any flagrant foul.

My suggestion is to just verbalize all the information when it comes to the type of foul and then give the "heave-ho" signal at the end when reporting to the table.

Otherwise there is no standard for these situation.

Peace