You make the call!

[JetMetFan]

PC foul...

However, this is yet another argument for NCAAM to switch to NCAAW's mechanic on a play like this and have the C make the call. To expand on SamIAm's point, it's very difficult for the L to tell whether there was contact on this play or whether the contact was enough to warrant a whistle.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

PC foul...

However, this is yet another argument for NCAAM to switch to NCAAW's mechanic on a play like this and have the C make the call. To expand on SamIAm's point, it's very difficult for the L to tell whether there was contact on this play or whether the contact was enough to warrant a whistle.

There was no C in that game...it was 2-man.

[BillyMac]

Player control foul.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

There was no C in that game...it was 2-man.

My mistake. I thought NCAA when I saw the college court.

That being the case...the L made that call outside of his PCA which explains why, IMO, he got it wrong. The T should have had that play from start to finish given where the contact took place. The L didn't even give him a chance to make the call.

[BktBallRef]

2 man or 3 man, I absolutely hate the L reaching across the lane to make a block charge call.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

My mistake. I thought NCAA when I saw the college court.

That being the case...the L made that call outside of his PCA which explains why, IMO, he got it wrong. The T should have had that play from start to finish given where the contact took place. The L didn't even give him a chance to make the call.

(BTW, I'm the L)

Correct call or not, the L, whether 2-man or 3-man, has secondary defenders coming from the L's primary. It is not (to a point) where the contact occurs but where the defender came from. That defender came from the center of the lane to help with contact occurring just 1 step outside of the lane.

Once the shooter got around the primary defender, which is the T's all the way to the shot (even into the Lead's PCA), the T would have to acquire the secondary defender coming from the lead's primary...which is generally considered to be unreliable and why the L is expected to cover help defenders coming into the play from their primary. Often, as it is the case, the T's view and ability to see the secondary defender coming across the lane is at least partially blocked by both the primary defender and the offensive player the secondary defender left.

BTW, the trail didn't have a charge on that play when we talked about it at halftime....for the reasons above. He didn't pick up the secondary defender in time to know when or how he got there....he was expecting me to know.

It would be less so in 3-man since the C would have been 10-15 ft. closer to the endline than the T was on that play and would have had a better view.

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

(BTW, I'm the L)

Correct call or not, the L, whether 2-man or 3-man, has secondary defenders coming from the L's primary. It is not (to a point) where the contact occurs but where the defender came from. That defender came from the center of the lane to help with contact occurring just 1 step outside of the lane.

Once the shooter got around the primary defender, which is the T's all the way to the shot (even into the Lead's PCA), the T would have to acquire the secondary defender coming from the lead's primary...which is generally considered to be unreliable and why the L is expected to cover help defenders coming into the play from their primary. Often, as it is the case, the T's view and ability to see the secondary defender coming across the lane is at least partially blocked by both the primary defender and the offensive player the secondary defender left.

BTW, the trail didn't have a charge on that play when we talked about it at halftime....for the reasons above. He didn't pick up the secondary defender in time to know when or how he got there....he was expecting me to know.

It would be less so in 3-man since the C would have been 10-15 ft. closer to the endline than the T was on that play and would have had a better view.

I agree, Camron. The L is expected to pick up the secondary defender(s) in a situation like this and make the call just as you did. My comment/question is why were you backing away from the play? With six players ballside it is acceptable, in fact, strongly encouraged in the NFHS manual that the Lead come across to ballside to obtain a better angle even before the ball gets that low to the endline just as we would in 3-man.

[JugglingReferee]

I've got a PC foul, if anything. The video quality is quite poor.

[johnny d]

camron,

why did you think it was a block, and after watching the tape do you still think it was a block?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by billyu2

I agree, Camron. The L is expected to pick up the secondary defender(s) in a situation like this and make the call just as you did. My comment/question is why were you backing away from the play? With six players ballside it is acceptable, in fact, strongly encouraged in the NFHS manual that the Lead come across to ballside to obtain a better angle even before the ball gets that low to the endline just as we would in 3-man.

If the clip were a bit longer, you'd see how it all developed (A friend made the clip for me...I have the DVD but have never captured short clips form one...need to figure out how).

At 2:06, the ball was FT line extended at the sideline on the L's side. So I was out at the 3-point line extended.

At 2:05, it was passed across the top and then down to the corner on the T's side by 2:04....very quick ball movement.

I was starting to cross the lane when that player drove the ball back into the key near the upper FT lane space. So I backed out as the play was coming to my side.

At 2:01, he reversed it back to the wing where the player immediately drove into contact at 1:59.

Being across the floor would have been ideal but the way the play shifted around, I'm not sure anyone else would have been there unless they were frantically moving all over the place.

It certainly looks a whole lot more like a charge on the video than it did on the floor from my angle. I'm not entirely convinced, however, that the video angle is right to conclude I was simply wrong (it was for a couple other calls ). It certainly isn't looking through the play any more than I was. I don't think you can tell if the defender was moving forward or not from that video angle...which is why I had judged it a block. I'd love to have a view looking from the endline on the side where the contact occurred....where I would have ideally been.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

If the clip were a bit longer, you'd see how it all developed (A friend made the clip for me...I have the DVD but have never captured short clips form one...need to figure out how).

At 2:06, the ball was FT line extended at the sideline on the L's side. So I was out at the 3-point line extended.

At 2:05, it was passed across the top and then down to the corner on the T's side by 2:04....very quick ball movement.

I was starting to cross the lane when that player drove the ball back into the key near the upper FT lane space. So I backed out as the play was coming to my side.

At 2:01, he reversed it back to the wing where the player immediately drove into contact at 1:59.

Being across the floor would have been ideal but the way the play shifted around, I'm not sure anyone else would have been there unless they were frantically moving all over the place.

It certainly looks a whole lot more like a charge on the video than it did on the floor from my angle. I'm not entirely convinced, however, that the video angle is right to conclude I was simply wrong (it was and a couple other calls ). It certainly isn't looking through the play any more than I was. I don't think you can tell if the defender was moving forward or not from that video angle...which is why I had judged it a block. I'd love to have a view looking from the endline on the side where the contact occurred....where I would have ideally been.

Where you should've been with a third official, right?

Ideally, Oregon would join the 21st century and give you folks that help. With a third official, someone would've been there.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Correct call or not, the L, whether 2-man or 3-man, has secondary defenders coming from the L's primary.

Once the shooter got around the primary defender, which is the T's all the way to the shot (even into the Lead's PCA), the T would have to acquire the secondary defender coming from the lead's primary...which is generally considered to be unreliable and why the L is expected to cover help defenders coming into the play from their primary.

My $0.02...regarding the L (i.e., you): It may be just me but when I think "acquire the secondary defender" I think picking up him/her to be prepared for contact in the lane. It's probably a function of having the "don't call across the lane" thing hammered into my head from NCAAW but during my pregame in 2-person games I tell my partner I won't pick up a play like this as the L if the defense is outside the lane unless the defender gets there really late or he/she grabs the offensive player by the arm. Again, it may just be me.

Regarding the T: I think he could've at least anticipated the second defender coming over which meant he would've been ready for contact (i.e., looking for the next matchup). A1 got past B1 with one dribble so the next thing to go through L's head could've been "B2 should be coming over any second now." It's good there was a whistle put on it but I still think the T could've gotten it.