Final TO

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by mdray
I was told at a camp once to "only tell a coach when he/she is out of time outs"...if you tell the coach there is one TO left, and then come to find out the scorer screwed up when he/she informed you of time outs remaining, and the team is really OUT of timeouts, you'll have one pi$$ed coach

I have had that happen to me. It was not a pretty situation. Table personnel screw up from time to time, so you have to be careful on what information you are telling them.

Peace

[zebraman]

So because you had a scorer screw up once, you'll never follow the rule to notify the coach again? Yeah, that makes sense. :-) You have said before that in your games, the scorer usually notifies the coach directly.... I don't see how if the situation is any better if the coach is pissed off at the scorer than at you... in fact, it's probably worse. If a referee is afraid to go near the bench to notify a coach that they are out of time-outs, as required by rule, there must already be a problem between the coach and the ref. Don't blame poor game management on a rule that you choose to ignore or call everyone who can manage the situation smoothly a "rulebook referee." That's cowardly.

Z

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by zebraman
So because you had a scorer screw up once, you'll never follow the rule to notify the coach again? Yeah, that makes sense. :-)

No, but if you want to believe that, go right ahead. Actually the philosophy that I have about this, has nothing or very little to do with that particular game. Part of it is that there is a faction of officials that believe that coaches know and scorers for their teams can tell them, and they do.

Originally posted by zebraman

You have said before that in your games, the scorer usually notifies the coach directly.... I don't see how if the situation is any better if the coach is pissed off at the scorer than at you... in fact, it's probably worse.

Well because in my area, or around the state in the games I have officiated, the coaches rely heavily on "their scorers" for information. Whether it is timeouts, foul sitautions or who has the number of fouls. Maybe that is not the case where you live, but coaches are always talking to the table, when they have a question asking "their scorekeeper" for that kind of information. But I guess you feel like I should do their job for them?

Originally posted by zebraman

If a referee is afraid to go near the bench to notify a coach that they are out of time-outs, as required by rule, there must already be a problem between the coach and the ref.

I know this, when they changed the timeout situation from so many twenty timeouts to so many full timeouts, it has been very common place to have the coach tell me him or herself what their situation is. When you ask a coach "what kind of timeout do you want," and he says, "I only have a 30." I guess I should go back and tell him again what he already knows.

Originally posted by zebraman

Don't blame poor game management on a rule that you choose to ignore or call everyone who can manage the situation smoothly a "rulebook referee." That's cowardly.

Z

At the end of the day, this is a philosophy. Just like I have in every single sport I officiate, there are rules and there are philosophies. You could never be a football official, because the rules do not make a distiction at the NCAA or NF what is a hold and how to call one. But there is a book out telling you how to call that and many other things, regardless of what the rulebook states. And it is not unusual to find the philosophy of holding to be called based on where the point of attack is, a very widely held philosophy in football alone.

Just because the rule says one thing, does not mean that everyone (and they do not) apply the rules the exact same way. Outside of folks like yourself on this board, not a single official I have ever come in contact with makes an issue out of this at all. Only folks that have nothing else better to do and probably cannot call a simple foul correctly, but you worry about things like this. Folks here keep saying "it is a rule," so what!!! It is a rule that has no consequence, I have never been told by an assignor if I did not tell a coach how many timeouts they have, I will not work in their conference. I have never been told that if I do not follow this to the letter, you will not work in their conference. You cannot even decide if the Referee tell the coach or any official tells the coach. Whether to go into the huddle or whether to wait until after the huddle breaks. The main advocates of this rule cannot even decide how it is to be handled, but I am suppose to go along with your ideals (which I will not) and apply this rule, when there are absolutely no consequences for this not being done. And if the coach is too stupid to know how many timeouts he called, too bad. This happen this weekend at a camp and not one evaluator got on the officials for the coach not knowing the situation. And in their words, "you have better things to worry about."

I will digress.

Peace

[Hawks Coach]

Jrut
Whoa! I would reply but I got lost in the middle somewhere. I guess you don't tell coaches, but it isn't clear why other than the simple reason that rules can be ignored if nobody told you to follow them. I understand not calling the bizarre, calling a game the way it is done in your region, etc. But this rule seems an odd one to exclude. You are right that coaches should know, and most do, but it seems a strange place to take a strong stand.

It is a rule, and, as I read the initial post, all of the guys at the camp got it right. Most said tell the coach or an assistant, none appear (from what was written) to have stated go into the huddle to give that notification, and one said don't go into the huddle. All of that is valid.

We coaches have a brief time in a TO to focus and send a specific message to our team. DO NOT interrupt that conversation to tell us we are out of timeouts. You can easily inform us when we are done with the TO or tell an assistant (who, as a team representative, can then decide whether or not to interrupt the TO with this info). I know the rule says head coach, but if I would allow any discretion, it would be to tell a member of the coaching staff and not limit it to the head coach.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Jrut
Whoa! I would reply but I got lost in the middle somewhere. I guess you don't tell coaches, but it isn't clear why other than the simple reason that rules can be ignored if nobody told you to follow them. I understand not calling the bizarre, calling a game the way it is done in your region, etc. But this rule seems an odd one to exclude. You are right that coaches should know, and most do, but it seems a strange place to take a strong stand.

This is not about exclusion, it is about importance. If a coach cannot count, than that is just too bad. If you are relying on me to tell you something I am not personally keeping track of, then you probably should not be coaching. This is not football where we are the main people that keep track of this. In football, the officials are the "official book" if you will. At that stage of the game, I am usually talking about things that affect us on the floor. Who has the last second shot? What kind of shot that team might take? If we have a double whistle, what are we doing? How much time is on the clock? Can they team take a shot or just tip the ball? Are we going to rotate to get good coverage, or are we going to lock down? I might even say, call the first foul, Team B wants to lengthen the game. Depending on if the timeout is a 30 or 60, that might not be a very long conversation. I have better things to do.

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

It is a rule, and, as I read the initial post, all of the guys at the camp got it right. Most said tell the coach or an assistant, none appear (from what was written) to have stated go into the huddle to give that notification, and one said don't go into the huddle. All of that is valid.

Well at the camp I was at this past weekend, they told us to not going looking for that information. If the scorer calls you over and tells you, nothing wrong with that. But if no one says anything, you do not worry about it. And that is the application I adhere to. And that has always worked for me and the partners I work with on a regular basis.

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

We coaches have a brief time in a TO to focus and send a specific message to our team. DO NOT interrupt that conversation to tell us we are out of timeouts. You can easily inform us when we are done with the TO or tell an assistant (who, as a team representative, can then decide whether or not to interrupt the TO with this info). I know the rule says head coach, but if I would allow any discretion, it would be to tell a member of the coaching staff and not limit it to the head coach.

What if we tell the assistant, are you going to get mad at us if he does not tell you? I really do not expect you to answer that, but if the rule is so important, then we have to tell the person the rules state is important, right? BTW, it does not say "head" coach, just coach. But then again in my years of doing varsity and college ball, this never becomes an issue. Especially when the coaches already know this information through their own scorekeepers. Maybe if I was doing a lot of Freshman ball and the table personnel was a teenager, this might be a bigger factor. But because adults are the ones that I see, this is never a factor. Just like the scorer can tell a coach how many fouls his star has, they usually tell them how many timeouts and what kind of timeouts they have.

Peace

[Hawks Coach]

Tables make errors. I call my 4th TO, the table has it as 5. You aren't checking, don't tell me. I call my 5th TO, table says I have no TOs, BANG. Wouldn't you rather have had this discussion and sort this out before you have T'd me up than after?

If you tell me that I have none and I think we have 1, we can discuss it a lot better than after you have given us a T for using one the table says we didn't have.

[w_sohl]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Tables make errors. I call my 4th TO, the table has it as 5. You aren't checking, don't tell me. I call my 5th TO, table says I have no TOs, BANG. Wouldn't you rather have had this discussion and sort this out before you have T'd me up than after?

If you tell me that I have none and I think we have 1, we can discuss it a lot better than after you have given us a T for using one the table says we didn't have.

Your scorer should be having this discussion with the table, not the officials. You have a scorer for a reason, to keep track of the game, if they aren't doing that kick them off the team and take their letter away, they don't deserve it.

[zebraman]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge

This is not about exclusion, it is about importance. If a coach cannot count, than that is just too bad.

Coaches shouldn't ref and refs shouldn't coach. Who are you to decide what is important and what is "too bad?" No wonder you are always worried about getting near the bench area with an attitude like that. Not only can't you follow the rule, now it's the coaches fault. More great comic material you provide to the forum.

If you are relying on me to tell you something I am not personally keeping track of, then you probably should not be coaching.

There you go again. Sounds like instead of the coach not coaching, perhaps you shouldn't be officiating.

At that stage of the game, I am usually talking about things that affect us on the floor. Who has the last second shot? What kind of shot that team might take? If we have a double whistle, what are we doing? How much time is on the clock? Can they team take a shot or just tip the ball? Are we going to rotate to get good coverage, or are we going to lock down?

And who gets possession if we have a held ball and HOW MANY FREAKIN' TIME-OUTS DOES EACH TEAM HAVE? Pretty simple stuff for most officials.

I might even say, call the first foul, Team B wants to lengthen the game. Depending on if the timeout is a 30 or 60, that might not be a very long conversation. I have better things to do.

Like telling the coaches what is and isn't important? Rut's rules now extend to coaches as well....like a bad virus :-)

Z

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by w_sohl
[/B]

Your scorer should be having this discussion with the table, not the officials. You have a scorer for a reason, to keep track of the game, if they aren't doing that kick them off the team and take their letter away, they don't deserve it. [/B][/QUOTE]Just for the record,w_sohl,if the scorer DOES tell you that a team has just taken it's last timeout,do you inform the team of that fact?

[w_sohl]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Just for the record,w_sohl,if the scorer DOES tell you that a team has just taken it's last timeout,do you inform the team of that fact?

Like my first post in this discussion said.....


Letting a coach know how many TO they have left to REQUEST is a situational thing for me. It all depends on a few factors, the first being, did the table tell me how many are left? If the table didn't tell me I am not going to ask because I have enough to worry about in an 84'x50' box. Secondly, what has been the coachÂ’s attitude throughout the game? Most important though, just like it is the assistant coaches responsibility to make sure the official knows what type of TO was requested it also their responsibility to inform their head coach of how many TO they have left, after all, he is just sitting there on his a** doing much of nothing anyway.

[mick]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
[B....if the scorer DOES tell you that a team has just taken it's last timeout,do you inform the team of that fact? [/B]

JR,
(...Drifting a might.)
Late in the game I check, or have an umpire check, on remaining time-outs. I do not rely on any scorer to follow procedure.
I think it's more important that the coach knows he is out of time-outs, than whether the scorer, or the crew, was the first to check on the number of time-outs that are available.
mick

[Jurassic Referee]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by w_sohl

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Like my first post in this discussion said.....


Letting a coach know how many TO they have left to REQUEST is a situational thing for me. It all depends on a few factors, the first being, did the table tell me how many are left? If the table didn't tell me I am not going to ask because I have enough to worry about in an 84'x50' box. Secondly, what has been the coachÂ’s attitude throughout the game? Most important though, just like it is the assistant coaches responsibility to make sure the official knows what type of TO was requested it also their responsibility to inform their head coach of how many TO they have left, after all, he is just sitting there on his a** doing much of nothing anyway.

That didn't answer the specific question above at all.I'll try again.

If the official scorer informs you that team A has just taken it's LAST legally allotted timeout,do you then inform Team A of that fact?

Just wondering.

[zebraman]

Originally posted by mick

JR,
(...Drifting a might.)
Late in the game I check, or have an umpire check, on remaining time-outs. I do not rely on any scorer to follow procedure.
I think it's more important that the coach knows he is out of time-outs, than whether the scorer, or the crew, was the first to check on the number of time-outs that are available.
mick

Amen to that Mick.

Z

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Tables make errors. I call my 4th TO, the table has it as 5. You aren't checking, don't tell me. I call my 5th TO, table says I have no TOs, BANG. Wouldn't you rather have had this discussion and sort this out before you have T'd me up than after?

You prove my exact point, "Tables make errors." No matter what I tell you, it is going to be based on what they tell me. If they are wrong, and you expect me to pass along that information, I am going to pass on incorrect information. So this is why it is ultimately your responsiblity to know what you call. I am only a messenger at best, not the keeper of the information. And if you run out, I am going to give a T regardless of how you you found out. And at the end of the day, I am only going to listen what the scorer told me, not what you think might have happen. I am not keeping a running total in my pocket. Sorry, I have much more important things to do.

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

If you tell me that I have none and I think we have 1, we can discuss it a lot better than after you have given us a T for using one the table says we didn't have.

And I will handle this just like any other situation. If yo think your star has 4 fouls and the table says five, we are going with the table. If you do not want that to happen, put someone at the table or pay close attention, so this never happens without you checking. Again, ultimately not my concern. It is funny how coaches can tell me what a rule is, how bad the call I just made, but you do not know how many timeouts you called?

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by zebraman


Coaches shouldn't ref and refs shouldn't coach. Who are you to decide what is important and what is "too bad?" No wonder you are always worried about getting near the bench area with an attitude like that. Not only can't you follow the rule, now it's the coaches fault. More great comic material you provide to the forum.

I will remember your "follow the rules" montra, when you T a coach that has one foot out of the coaching box and he is talking to his team. I expect you give a T to that coach, because the rules says so. But then again, you have no common sense, so what else is new?

Originally posted by zebraman

There you go again. Sounds like instead of the coach not coaching, perhaps you shouldn't be officiating.

Maybe I should not, just because you said it. I will remember next time, to not invest in a company because you think it is a bad investment. Should I also ask you about my marriage plans. My vacation plans or what should I be doing over the weekend? You know how important your opinion is to me, you tell me?

Originally posted by zebraman

And who gets possession if we have a held ball and HOW MANY FREAKIN' TIME-OUTS DOES EACH TEAM HAVE? Pretty simple stuff for most officials.

Who gets possession of the ball does not rest only in the hands of the table by the way. If I know I gave it to white the last time, I am not going to give it to them again. But that is something I can keep track of much easier, than a possible 10 timeouts. Officials can usually remember who the tip when to, as a matter of fact, we might know who had possession and the table just points the way the ball ultimately went. But timeouts, when working a 3 man, I might personally have not called one timeout the entire game. So I at the very least understand I do not have any good knowledge of this situation. That is why the table has a pencil or a pen in their possession. When Honigs starts selling "Basketball information packages" I will do what you suggest.

Originally posted by zebraman

Like telling the coaches what is and isn't important? Rut's rules now extend to coaches as well....like a bad virus

I just had the conversation and a situation happen at a camp that I attended this week. The head clincian told us not to worry about this, so I guess it would be hard to say it is "Rut's Rules" when it is taught in a camp that I had to pay money to attend. If it is not a major concern for the Head Clinician of the State of Illinois, it really is not a concern for me. And last time I checked, his resume was much more extensive than the one you or I own.

Peace