Villanova v. Georgetown

[APG]

Crew ended up calling a flagrant one after going to the monitor:



Agree/disagree? Assuming you're calling this foul under whatever rule set you work, is it an INT/FF1 or upgrade to Flagrant/FF2? Would you go with a personal or technical (live v. dead ball)?

[JugglingReferee]

I could very easily have a flagrant foul. At minimum, it's an INT.

In FIBA, it's a minimum UNS foul, possibly DQ.

In either ruleset, I hope I'd lean towards a DQ if I saw the elbow to the head.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

I could very easily have a flagrant foul. At minimum, it's an INT.

+1

NFHS rule set, I have intentional. I'm not quite sold on flagrant, as I believe the intent was to push with the arm, not the elbow.

[Raymond]

If anyone in my crew had suggested FF2 I would have no problem going with it.

[JetMetFan]

As a GU alum I'm willing to be charitable and leave it as a Flagrant 1. It was excessive/unnecessary but not severe.

I also have it as a live ball foul. The contact took place before the try entered the basket.

[JRutledge]

I probably would go with an intentional/FF1 on this. I just am wondering where the contact first took place, in the chest or in the head and I would be more sold on the actual call either way.

Peace

[rockyroad]

A question: Can they go to the monitor even though a foul was not called? I was under the impression that they could upgrade a foul, but in this case, none of the officials actually called a foul - they all have open hands up in the air. So is it correct procedure to go from nothing to an FF1?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

A question: Can they go to the monitor even though a foul was not called? I was under the impression that they could upgrade a foul, but in this case, none of the officials actually called a foul - they all have open hands up in the air. So is it correct procedure to go from nothing to an FF1?

Rule 2-13-2d:

2. When officials err and fail to observe the fouls according to 2-13-2.d.1 or a fight, they are permitted to correct and penalize these infraction(s), with the use of a monitor review, when the act occurs:

a. When the game clock was stopped, it must be corrected:

1. During the first dead ball after the clock was properly started.

b. When the game clock was running, it must be corrected:

1. During the first dead ball after the clock was properly stopped; or

2. Before the second live ball when the ball became dead after a successful goal but the clock continued to run.

Basically it's handled like a correctable error.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Rule 2-13-2d:

2. When officials err and fail to observe the fouls according to 2-13-2.d.1 or a fight, they are permitted to correct and penalize these infraction(s), with the use of a monitor review, when the act occurs:

a. When the game clock was stopped, it must be corrected:

1. During the first dead ball after the clock was properly started.

b. When the game clock was running, it must be corrected:

1. During the first dead ball after the clock was properly stopped; or

2. Before the second live ball when the ball became dead after a successful goal but the clock continued to run.

Basically it's handled like a correctable error.

Gotcha...thanks!

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Gotcha...thanks!

In fact, A.R. 42 speaks directly to your question:

A.R. 42.

During a live ball, officials fail to observe the illegal contact of A1's elbow above the shoulders of defender B1 on a play under Team A's basket. Play continues to the opposite end of the court where a flagrant 1 personal foul is called against B2 for illegally contacting A2 above the shoulders with her elbow. After the official reports the foul on B2, the Team B coach informs an official that B1 is bleeding because B1 was flagrantly fouled by A1. The official chooses to review the monitor to determine if a flagrant 2 personal foul occurred when they were not looking.

RULING: The officials may use the monitor to determine if a flagrant 2 personal foul or (Women) a flagrant 1 personal foul for illegal elbow contact above the shoulders of the opponent occurred against B1 when they were not looking. When the officials determine that this illegal contact by A1 is not a flagrant 2 personal foul, but is a flagrant 1 personal foul and they are within the time frame to penalize this foul, the officials may assess a flagrant 1 personal foul. Since the review of the foul occurred during the first dead ball period following the illegal contact by A1, they are within the legal time frame to penalize this foul. Player B1 will shoot two free throws for the flagrant 1 personal foul charged to A1 with no players on the marked lane spaces. Following these free throws, Player A2 will shoot two free throws with no players in the marked lane spaces for the flagrant 1 personal foul charged to B2. Play is resumed with a throw-in under Team B's basket to the team entitled to the alternating-possession arrow. This is where play was stopped to review the monitor, making it the point of interruption.

(2-13-2.d.2)

[BillyMac]

Intentional. I don't have a flagrant here, and it has to be either intentional, or flagrant, because the ball is dead (after made basket). Can't call a common foul here, and I'm not ignoring this contact, although that may be an option that some may take.

[Camron Rust]

Agree with the rest...intentional only, not flagrant.

[Welpe]

Minimum intentional though I'm not ruling out flagrant. I can't tell where he landed the elbow but there's only one reason to stick an elbow out like that.