Miami Heat v. New York Knicks: LeBron Block Attempt and Foul

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

That looks like damn near the same play. Both James and Wade make contact with Melo on both plays and Melo lands on his feet both times. I am seriously not sure why these plays would be called any differently.

Thanks again for following through with this request.

Peace

I would say Wade was more vertical on his play than Lebron was, but I still wouldn't have had a foul on Lebron.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I'm color-blind and horrible at identifying purple so I just learned something new. And if someone wants to say that "protect the shooter" is in the NFHS rules then the closest reference would be the wording in ruling 4.1.1 from the case book.

Well at least you know or admit that you are color-blind and realize how you could not identify a certain color.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I would say Wade was more vertical on his play than Lebron was, but I still wouldn't have had a foul on Lebron.

I also agree with that, but both defenders are jumping towards Melo. That is why I say these plays are basically the same. Of course they are not exactly the same, but if one is a foul, then the other one must be a foul too if you use the same basic philosophy IMO. Or if you do not use that same philosophy, then someone would have to explain to me what is the affect on normal movement as stated in Rule 4-27.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

That looks like damn near the same play. Both James and Wade make contact with Melo on both plays and Melo lands on his feet both times. I am seriously not sure why these plays would be called any differently.

Thanks again for following through with this request.

Peace

Wade more or less went strait up while Lebron came flying across the lane to get there.

Wade was in LGP and jumped up as he's permitted to do.

While I can see a no call on Lebron, I don't see that a call is wrong with the way he came into the play....he didn't have LGP and was not in Melo's path at any time. Often that play is passed on, but technically, bainsey is correct.

[jump stop]

Did Carmelo travel on the 1st play posted? Did he bring pivot foot back to floor, did not land simultaneosly?

[ronald]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Wade more or less went strait up while Lebron came flying across the lane to get there.

Wade was in LGP and jumped up as he's permitted to do.

While I can see a no call on Lebron, I don't see that a call is wrong with the way he came into the play....he didn't have LGP and was not in Melo's path at any time. Often that play is passed on, but technically, bainsey is correct.

+1
and maybe this is what the nba ref saw as i recall he comes across the lane, pivots and it appears his head and eyes picks up the secondary defender and he refs that player's actions. i am not sure all the good points on how to ref above the rim are correct on this particular play. melo grabbing the rim definitely changed just how far he would have been moved from his planned path. even with the grab of the rim, he is displaced a fair amount from intended path in my view. it would be nice to know how this play was graded by the nba. any chance one of you guys can find out?
















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[APG]

Originally Posted by ronald

+1
and maybe this is what the nba ref saw as i recall he comes across the lane, pivots and it appears his head and eyes picks up the secondary defender and he refs that player's actions. i am not sure all the good points on how to ref above the rim are correct on this particular play. melo grabbing the rim definitely changed just how far he would have been moved from his planned path. even with the grab of the rim, he is displaced a fair amount from intended path in my view. it would be nice to know how this play was graded by the nba. any chance one of you guys can find out?
















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A buddy of mine who works in the NBA D-League said he had a clean block without hesitation.

[ballgame99]

I had a foul on James (as I stated earlier), but Wade's was clean without question. Wade is vertical and the body contact is created by Melo. It was presented as the "same play" as the James play, but I see it as the opposite of the James play; ie no verticality by the defender with all the contact being created by the defender.

Doesn't some of this depend on which level you officiate? Someone said you won't last long in the NBA if you call that a foul, and maybe that's true. But on the other hand, I'm not sure if you would last long at the HS level if you didn't. You'd have a brawl every night.

[APG]

I honestly wouldn't expect a whistle in a college game. In a high school game, I would expect that more officials would put call this a foul, but I'd still disagree with the call. My point was at any level of play, I've been told that if you're consistently putting air in the whistle on this type of play, you aren't going to last long. Of course if your boss says he wants a foul on this, by all means, go ahead and do so.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ballgame99

I had a foul on James (as I stated earlier), but Wade's was clean without question. Wade is vertical and the body contact is created by Melo. It was presented as the "same play" as the James play, but I see it as the opposite of the James play; ie no verticality by the defender with all the contact being created by the defender.

It was basically the same play as Melo was attacking the basket from about the same spot on the floor and the defender and both defenders blocked the ball and had some level of contact. And Melo landed about the same. That does not mean there were not some differences, just a block first and subsequent contact. And if we are worried about James not be as vertical, neither is Melo on either play.

Originally Posted by ballgame99

Doesn't some of this depend on which level you officiate? Someone said you won't last long in the NBA if you call that a foul, and maybe that's true. But on the other hand, I'm not sure if you would last long at the HS level if you didn't. You'd have a brawl every night.

I believe you are right, it does depend on the level you work. But I do not think it is necessary the differences between NBA or HS as an example. If you called these a foul in most HS games I am used to working (big schools), you would be widely criticized for calling a foul. And you certainly would not be in a threat of any brawl on an athlete blocking a shot. As I said I had a very good friend/partner this last year work the State Finals and he called a foul on a similar play that was a little further out form the basket and he called a foul. The overall reaction was that he missed the call and the evaluators said he should have not called the foul. And I have yet to see the video to know how much if any contact the defender was responsible for before or after the call and that was the take. So an official calling these at the varsity level here will not work very long in Boy's basketball and certainly will not work post season if they cannot consistently rule these plays a block.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I believe you are right, it does depend on the level you work. But I do not think it is necessary the differences between NBA or HS as an example. If you called these a foul in most HS games I am used to working (big schools), you would be widely criticized for calling a foul. And you certainly would not be in a threat of any brawl on an athlete blocking a shot. As I said I had a very good friend/partner this last year work the State Finals and he called a foul on a similar play that was a little further out form the basket and he called a foul. The overall reaction was that he missed the call and the evaluators said he should have not called the foul. And I have yet to see the video to know how much if any contact the defender was responsible for before or after the call and that was the take. So an official calling these at the varsity level here will not work very long in Boy's basketball and certainly will not work post season if they cannot consistently rule these plays a block.

Peace

I've learned from feedback that fouls on plays like this are best not called. The shot is done, the player lands safely. If players are gong to brawl over little stuff like this, they've got other issues. I can guarantee I'd get more grief for making this call than I'd get for letting it go; even at lower levels.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

I honestly wouldn't expect a whistle in a college game. In a high school game, I would expect that more officials would put call this a foul, but I'd still disagree with the call. My point was at any level of play, I've been told that if you're consistently putting air in the whistle on this type of play, you aren't going to last long. Of course if your boss says he wants a foul on this, by all means, go ahead and do so.

I think most HS officials when you consider all levels and experience levels are not capable of passing on this play, because they are like many here, they see contact they think foul on these types of plays. At the same time cannot identify hand-checking or illegal screens, but this call is a "must call" for many because there was any type of contact with an airborne shooter.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I think most HS officials when you consider all levels and experience levels are not capable of passing on this play, because they are like many here, they see contact they think foul on these types of plays. At the same time cannot identify hand-checking or illegal screens, but this call is a "must call" for many because there was any type of contact with an airborne shooter.

Peace

I would agree with this, but people who work a level of ball where there are regularly plays like this will learn how to not call this.

Of course, there are always the people (normally middle school and jv coaches) who insist any contact with an airborne shooter is an "automatic" foul.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I would agree with this, but people who work a level of ball where there are regularly plays like this will learn how to not call this.

Of course, there are always the people (normally middle school and jv coaches) who insist any contact with an airborne shooter is an "automatic" foul.

And that is part of the problem. They call this crap at these lower levels and they get patted on the back for doing so. Then when they get to a HS game with some players that can jump, then they call fouls.

Funny how I worked an AAU Tournament this past weekend with kids that might have been no older than 10 years old. On one play a kid split two defenders and lost his balance and threw up some crap to attempt a shot. I saw the entire thing and the defenders literally did not touch him, but he fell down on his face basically and the coach complained and ask me how that was not a foul? I answered by saying, "The the defenders did nothing wrong or illegal, he just fell." The coach basically said, "He cannot fall over air?" It was funny because I guess he has never seen a 10 year old fall down on his own not only in basketball, but while playing in the street. I am convinced officials buy into that thinking and call things that are easy because it is accepted. Not that what I just described was the exact kind of play, but it certainly is the reason I think many will call a foul even when any contact takes place with a shooter. They do not have the ability to have courage to not call what is not there or to explain why it was not a foul to a hostile coach. But experience teaches you sometimes that you are doing no one a favor by calling a foul just to be calling a foul.

Peace

[rockyroad]

Hey APG...any chance you can post McGee's block of Gasol from last night? LAte in the 4th quarter (less than a minute to go, I think) and McGee rejected Gasol's dunk attempt...

[APG]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Hey APG...any chance you can post McGee's block of Gasol from last night? LAte in the 4th quarter (less than a minute to go, I think) and McGee rejected Gasol's dunk attempt...