Karl Hess tosses two NC State players

[Brad]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

Ok, same adult admitted that "There were seven or eight different calls we were contesting and that no profanity was used." Is 7-8 calls considered the majority of the game?

And there is NO WAY that said individual might underestimate how severe his behavior was, right? Why do you expect that we should take him at his word?

Besides, I think that this statement by him speaks more to the type of fan he is: "We're not denying we were all over him, but I've been doing that every game I've been at since I retired," said Corchiani, who said he attends just about every NC State game. "That's homecourt advantage."

You know what? Grow up. You're in your 40s now. Quit acting like a petulant child. It was cool for me and my friends to yell at the referees when we were in high school. At some point it becomes no longer cool. You're well past that point. Start acting like an adult. The university holds you up as a "legend". Act like one.

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

It just seems that people in our profession would, by default, pass judgement until real evidence, a detailed report, a video, something is produced to vindicate one side or the other and not go by assumption.

You don't always need video to come to a conclusion — there is tons of other evidence. If your kid tells you something and an adult that you trust tells you a different story who do you believe? Do you need video evidence to come to a reasonable conclusion? Of course not.

Karl Hess didn't get to where he is by having rabbit ears and kicking people out of games willy-nilly. If he stopped the ESPN nationally-televised game to have a fan removed it was for a damn good reason. I don't need to see the video of their behavior to prove it. In fact, the video of them immediately leaving is enough to tell me that they knew they had been caught —*just like the look the dog gives you when you ask him if he ate the steak on the counter. You don't need video to know that he did.

Finally, I think that officials take so much crap from coaches, fans, commentators, etc. that there is a natural tendency to stick together in the one place we can —*with each other. Karl Hess has been unfairly thrown under the bus by the AD, ESPN, sports commentators, etc. I promise you if the two fans that had been kicked out were just your average everyday fans this would have NEVER even been a news story.

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by Brad

You don't always need video to come to a conclusion — there is tons of other evidence.

Great! Give me just a few pieces of that evidence. I don't want opinion or conjecture. I asked for some earlier and you came back with an assumption.

If these guys have a history of being warned at games or have been tossed in previous game(s), then I'd like to know that, I really would. I just haven't heard or seen any real evidence yet to support what you guys are selling.... I'm willing to buy, but give me something more than just assumptions. It's what critical thinkers ask for.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

Great! Give me just a few pieces of that evidence. I don't want opinion or conjecture. I asked for some earlier and you came back with an assumption.

If these guys have a history of being warned at games or have been tossed in previous game(s), then I'd like to know that, I really would. I just haven't heard or seen any real evidence yet to support what you guys are selling.... I'm willing to buy, but give me something more than just assumptions. It's what critical thinkers ask for.

I've given it time and time again ... you just want to continue to bash the official and make inferences that you are able to handle crowd pressure better in your AAU games.

There is NO WAY that an official of Hess' stature and experience is just throwing fans out for no good reason. THAT'S the evidence. All you need. If you don't get that, I don't know how to explain it to you.

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by Brad

I've given it time and time again ... you just want to continue to bash the official and make inferences that you are able to handle crowd pressure better in your AAU games.

There is NO WAY that an official of Hess' stature and experience is just throwing fans out for no good reason. THAT'S the evidence. All you need. If you don't get that, I don't know how to explain it to you.

I haven't bashed anyone. I just haven't taken sides. And I was only responding to Snaqs, who said basically that anyone complaining for the whole game doesn't deserve to be given any due process. I was only trying to give a couterpoint to that conclusion.

In my last post I had asked you a question and was hoping you'd respond, but looks like you've responded to everything but the question itself.

I'd be careful with the 'NO WAY's..... The minute you stand on that, you'll see a 'YES WAY' coming right at you. Especially when YOU don't have any specifics to the situation, other than "it's Karl Hess". Sorry, he's human too and is just as capable of screwing up as the rest of us.

[MrPlywood]

re: giving Hess the benefit of the doubt - Hess himself has been quoted as saying he's got thick skin, and he's yet to say exactly what Corchiani and Gugliotta said to get through that skin. The FSU AD was right there and has stated that the two former players didn't say anything out of line. Others near the two, including people at the scorers table, have corroborated the FSU AD.

As far as reputation, again, plenty of posters here give Hess the leeway and pile on the two players while admitting that they don't know what was said, but "it must have been something". So, yes, Hess has officiated tons of games. And he recently blew a crucial, obvious goaltending call in the WVU/Syracuse game. So there's a mistake he has made. He's not infallible. Several media sources published Hess' schedule, and the guy has been all over the map, leading many to speculate that he (as well as other refs) are over worked.

Corchiani played 124 college games and was never ejected, and at one point was the all-time NCAA assists leader (he's still second). That sounds like pretty good street cred to me. Corch and Gugliotta were sitting with their families and have said there was no profanity, stated their case, yet Hess has remained curiously silent.

Last but not least, for all you law and order types, Hess has reffed plenty of games in Cameron Indoor within earshot of the famous profanity laced rantings of Coach K and the Crazies, and amazingly, he has tossed no one.

Admit it, Hess had rabbit ears and over-reacted. If he had a real reason, why not clear the air?

[APG]

What does a player's accomplishments on the court have to do with how they act as fans in the stands? The two have absolutely no correlation. We aren't going to hear Hess' side of the story because conference policy for the most part forbid this unless given permission.

I'm also not sure how one can have rabbit ears in this situation when the fans are right behind the scorer's table where the official has to be, to communicate with the table. It's not as if he went out of his way to hear them.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by MrPlywood

re: giving Hess the benefit of the doubt - Hess himself has been quoted as saying he's got thick skin, and he's yet to say exactly what Corchiani and Gugliotta said to get through that skin. The FSU AD was right there and has stated that the two former players didn't say anything out of line. Others near the two, including people at the scorers table, have corroborated the FSU AD.

Who gives a crap what the FSU AD thought? They are not in a position to know what their actions are over the top or would mostly follow the lead of the official when a fan gets out of line. That just weakens your argument on so many levels. Also, Hess does not owe anyone an explanation but the ACC and his supervisor and his supervisor comes first in that explanation. He does not have to tell the media, or you and me anything.

Originally Posted by MrPlywood

As far as reputation, again, plenty of posters here give Hess the leeway and pile on the two players while admitting that they don't know what was said, but "it must have been something". So, yes, Hess has officiated tons of games. And he recently blew a crucial, obvious goaltending call in the WVU/Syracuse game. So there's a mistake he has made. He's not infallible.

Are you an official? The reason I ask is because most of us that have been doing this for some time know there are things fans have said that are over the top and got them removed from games. That means we do not need to know what was said to know it is very possible to get ejected for not much being said. Heck I was with an AD of a HS last night and he was telling me things about a game where the officials did not even eject the individual, but the AD pulled the trigger based on this fan's conduct. You act like there are magic words that are said and not an overall behavior that is considered unacceptable. If you were an experienced official that would be obvious to you.

Originally Posted by MrPlywood

Corchiani played 124 college games and was never ejected, and at one point was the all-time NCAA assists leader (he's still second). That sounds like pretty good street cred to me. Corch and Gugliotta were sitting with their families and have said there was no profanity, stated their case, yet Hess has remained curiously silent.

So what??!!!

He also did not play in this era where there are more scrutiny towards behavior for all involved and I bet if he mouthed off to officials back when he played, the officials probably used saltier language to get their point across. Have you ever heard guys in the NBA back then when they were miced up back in the 80s? They would us just as foul language as the players and tell them off in ways we would never think was OK today. Officials back then did not have to T up players back then the same way they are expected now. And if they did, they did not have the same environment.

Originally Posted by MrPlywood

Last but not least, for all you law and order types, Hess has reffed plenty of games in Cameron Indoor within earshot of the famous profanity laced rantings of Coach K and the Crazies, and amazingly, he has tossed no one.

The Camron Crazies are not sitting behind the scorer's table either. And it is totally different when a bunch of people are yelling together, when a fool sits in a spot where his actions are going to be recognized in a sea of thousands of people. It was also reported that these guys were warned by security independent of this ejection for their behavior. So I guess the security or police were just saying something to him because of Hess? Again you said we do not know what was said, I have not heard you say what he said either. Actually you have no idea and like many guilty people they do not admit to what they actually did. I am sure he said a little more than just telling the official they are having a bad night. Most fans never say anything that tame, they usually accuse officials of everything short of being a child of God.

Originally Posted by MrPlywood

Admit it, Hess had rabbit ears and over-reacted. If he had a real reason, why not clear the air?

Admit that you have no idea what that even means. If want to do something that is going to get you noticed, be smart enough to place yourself in a place where no one will know it is you. Obviously the education they give at NC State was not good enough to realize that sitting behind the scorer's table is not a good spot if you want to run your mouth and stay. They should have sat away from the floor and maybe their actions would not have drawn attention. But then again, you know what was said right? Because if he said something racially, sexually or very personal about someone's family I doubt they would be staying very long. Paying your money gives you the right to watch the game, not to say and do what you want. Or can you read the fine print on most tickets at events like this?

Peace

[Bad Zebra]

Originally Posted by MrPlywood

Admit it, Hess had rabbit ears and over-reacted. If he had a real reason, why not clear the air?

1. You, nor anybody else who wasn't there to witness exactly what happened first hand, have any basis for claiming he had rabbit ears and over-reacted. The vast majority of OFFICIALS here will give him the benefit of the doubt based on the reasons you so eloquently lay out in your post.

2. He, as a professional basketball official, will probably never speak out publicly on the matter. The conference and NCAA probably prefer it that way. We, as OFFICIALS, generally do not talk to the media or anyone else publicly about anything that takes place during a game. It's part of a code of conduct that we (mostly) adopt when we wear the stripes.

3. Why do you feel the need to come on an OFFICIAL'S discussion board to state your case against him? Do you expect any of us to suddenly declare: "Ah, we see the error of our ways. You are right Mr Plywood. Hess was obviously in the wrong here. We will be sure to persecute him at the next secret OFFICIALS meeting". Not gonna happen. Move along. I'm sure there's going to be some controversy in the NCAA tournament that will bring you back here to whine.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra

3. Why do you feel the need to come on an OFFICIAL'S discussion board to state your case against him? Do you expect any of us to suddenly declare: "Ah, we see the error of our ways. You are right Mr Plywood. Hess was obviously in the wrong here. We will be sure to persecute him at the next secret OFFICIALS meeting". Not gonna happen. Move along. I'm sure there's going to be some controversy in the NCAA tournament that will bring you back here to whine.

Unless I missed something he is probably not an official. Or if he is one, not a very experienced one. And experienced official would know that there are a lot of things if said would get you ejected rather quickly even at that level.

Peace

[Brad]

Originally Posted by MrPlywood

re: giving Hess the benefit of the doubt - Hess himself has been quoted as saying he's got thick skin, and he's yet to say exactly what Corchiani and Gugliotta said to get through that skin.

Right, because generally conferences prohibit officials from talking to or making statements to the media.

Originally Posted by MrPlywood

The FSU AD was right there and has stated that the two former players didn't say anything out of line.

What would you expect the AD of the school to say concerning former players of that school attending games at that school?!? Of *course* she is going to defend them. This doesn't show anything at all.

Originally Posted by MrPlywood

And he recently blew a crucial, obvious goaltending call in the WVU/Syracuse game. So there's a mistake he has made. He's not infallible.

Apples and oranges. No one has said that Hess is infallible. What we have said is that he must have had a good reason to throw them out in order to stop the game and have them removed. You don't do something like that lightly. Especially someone with his experience.

Comparing this to a missed call is simply laughable.

Originally Posted by MrPlywood

Several media sources published Hess' schedule, and the guy has been all over the map, leading many to speculate that he (as well as other refs) are over worked.

Please excuse my yawning while I listen to the same tired story that the sports media drags out every couple of years.

Originally Posted by MrPlywood

Corchiani played 124 college games and was never ejected

This means nothing and has no bearing on the situation.

Originally Posted by MrPlywood

and at one point was the all-time NCAA assists leader (he's still second).

This means even less.

Originally Posted by MrPlywood

Last but not least, for all you law and order types, Hess has reffed plenty of games in Cameron Indoor within earshot of the famous profanity laced rantings of Coach K and the Crazies, and amazingly, he has tossed no one.

Admit it, Hess had rabbit ears and over-reacted. If he had a real reason, why not clear the air?

I love this last part the best. You give an example of how Hess routinely handles profanity and tirades from a coach and crazy fans, and then draw the conclusion that he has rabbit ears and over-reacts.

WUT?

The fact that he has been on the receiving end of the "profanity laced rantings" and hasn't tossed other fans out gives Hess MORE credibility in this situation!!

[asdf]

Originally Posted by MrPlywood

Admit it, Hess had rabbit ears and over-reacted. If he had a real reason, why not clear the air?

Hess was reprimanded for how he handled the ejection, not the fact that he ejected.

Admit it, You are nothing but a fanboy. (Nevermind, you actually did in one of your first posts)

[Adam]

Originally Posted by MrPlywood

Last but not least, for all you law and order types, Hess has reffed plenty of games in Cameron Indoor within earshot of the famous profanity laced rantings of Coach K and the Crazies, and amazingly, he has tossed no one.

Admit it, Hess had rabbit ears and over-reacted. If he had a real reason, why not clear the air?

That's pretty much our point. Unless you think Hess suddenly developed rabbit ears, or maybe he has some sort of grudge against NC State or its veterans from 20 years ago.

Ties for dumbest post ever on the internet. Unless I missed your sarcasm.

[26 Year Gap]

One of the first things we learn as officials is that silence cannot be quoted. That said, plywood, I thought I heard Hess's name during the Duke-NC game braodcast tonight. A scathing rebuke, I'd say.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

If these guys have a history of being warned at games or have been tossed in previous game(s), then I'd like to know that, I really would. I just haven't heard or seen any real evidence yet to support what you guys are selling....

This is really irrelevant. All that matters is what they did/said that game. Perhaps we will never know, but given what everyone else has said, I'm pretty comfortable with how he handled it.